Yet more evidence that commercial brewers do not mash at 5.2 to 5.6 pH ...

[dmtaylor]

Yup.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Having mashed beers at all pH's I have my conclusion

Could you elaborate on this a little, please? What ranges did you try and how did you decide what you prefer?
Is it possible that your preferred mash pH (5.4 @ 68°F) could influenced by the beer style and/or particular malts you're using, or just your personal taste?
Did you conduct these trials while adjusting the kettle pH (early and/or late) to a consistent value?

To me, this is the most important aspect of this thread -- what tastes the best. I care about taste certainly more than phytase activity or even efficiency, fermentability, or other parameters.
Did you decide on 5.4 (at 68°F) based on taste?

While I appreciate Larry digging into this, I agree the theoretical discussion just seems to provide more questions than answers.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Could you elaborate on this a little, please? What ranges did you try and how did you decide what you prefer?
Is it possible that your preferred mash pH (5.4 @ 68°F) could influenced by the beer style and/or particular malts you're using, or just your personal taste?
Did you conduct these trials while adjusting the kettle pH (early and/or late) to a consistent value?

To me, this is the most important aspect of this thread -- what tastes the best. I care about taste certainly more than phytase activity or even efficiency, fermentability, or other parameters.
Did you decide on 5.4 (at 68°F) based on taste?

While I appreciate Larry digging into this, I agree the theoretical discussion just seems to provide more questions than answers.

From 5.0-5.75

Mash pH has little to nothing to do with taste directly.. Taste of what?

My pH figures were decided upon for the balance of enzymatic action, Lox inhibition, and wort darkening.

My Kettle is always adjusted for a post boil of 5.0-5.1. There a myriad of reasons for this as well.

Mashing, boiling, Hopping, fermentation, malts, water, et all, are all factors that effect the profile of the finished beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Taste of what?

Taste of the finished beer. Mash pH plays a minimal role on flavor in your experience?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How about skipping mash pH adjustment altogether provided that the presumption is for mash pH being at or below pH 5.8 and at or above pH 5.4, and simply dual adjusting the kettle pH post mashing as follows:

1) Measure pre-boil pH at room temperature after completing all lautering, run-off, and sparging.
2) Calculate the mL's of acid required to hit pH 5.15, and write it down.
3) Calculate the mL's of acid required to hit pH 5.4 (if above pH 5.4), and write it down.
4) Add the amount of acid calculated to hit pH 5.4 before heating to boil, and then proceed to boil and make hops additions.*
5) Subtract step 3 (if a positive value) from step 2, and add this final amount of acid when there are only 10 minutes remaining in the boil.**
6) When its cooled for transfer to the fermenter take a pH reading to see if achieving the goal of hitting between 5.1 and 5.2 pH post boil and cooling was accomplished.

* Adjusting to an intermediate target of pH 5.4 pre-boil will mitigate Maillard reactions and thereby keep color darkening to a minimum.
** Adjusting pH to the final 5.15 target with only 10 minutes remaining in the boil will allow for maximized hop utilization.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I wouldn't.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How does Rochefort manage to produce some of the worlds finest beers while admitting to mashing at a measured 5.8 to 5.9 pH, and then mineral acid adjusting to pH 5.2 during the boil? Didn't they learn the refinement of their craft from Jean De Clerck?

 

[Paulaner]

How does Rochefort manage to produce some of the worlds finest beers while admitting to mashing at a measured 5.8 to 5.9 pH, and then mineral acid adjusting to pH 5.2 during the boil? Didn't they learn the refinement of their craft from Jean De Clerck?

Worlds finest is kind of an overstatement I would say, plus Rochefort has such a distinct astringency/bitterness that could be attributed to this high PH, not sure as I gave up on drinking Belgium beer regularly years ago as I've come to appreciate light delicate beers. While I enjoy a Rochefort every now and then, that astringency that they have make it stand out amongst all the Trappist beers, hell Belgium beers while I think about it. Although, over time that astringency goes away, say 8+ years, I just had a 10 last week that was 12 years old and what do you know, the astringency was gone.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

All I can say to this is that Rochefort 10 scores a perfect 100 out of 100 points on both BeerAdvocate and RateBeer.

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/207/645/

https://www.ratebeer.com/beer/rochefort-trappistes-10/2360/1/67#!

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yea I think Belgian beer is vile so. I’m the wrong guy to answer that.

 

[Paulaner]

All I can say to this is that Rochefort 10 scores a perfect 100 out of 100 points on both BeerAdvocate and RateBeer.

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/207/645/

https://www.ratebeer.com/beer/rochefort-trappistes-10/2360/1/67#!

So, if we want an astringent beer like Rochefort mash at 5.8-5.9 PH?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You are of course completely free to voice your individual and independent opinion, but a total of roughly 11,750 other of such independent and unsolicited ratings averaging to perfect scores across the two well regarded rating agencies I listed might just potentially indicate otherwise.

 

[Paulaner]

You are of course completely free to voice your individual and independent opinion, but a total of roughly 11,750 other of such independent and unsolicited ratings averaging to perfect scores across the two well regarded rating agencies I listed might just potentially indicate otherwise.

So are we arguing about how great Rochefort is, or are we saying that Rochefort doesn't have an astringency from mashing so high? Cause I have no interest what the masses say with beer taste, hell thousands of people are hoarding toilet paper right now, should I start doing that now because that's what the masses say? I'm now completely lost with what you're saying.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So are we arguing about how great Rochefort is, or are we saying that Rochefort doesn't have an astringency from mashing so high? Cause I have no interest what the masses say with beer taste, hell thousands of people are hoarding toilet paper right now, should I start doing that now because that's what the masses say? I'm now completely lost with what you're saying.

When it's 11,750 to one I wouldn't think to call it arguing, unless perhaps you are merely trolling. One way for you to find out would be to read the 11,750 reviews and see how many mention astringency. This is your homework assignment for tonight. Report back with your findings in the morning. And I might add that only you are arguing by the way.

 

[lowtones84]

Round and round and round we go, where we stop...

 

[Paulaner]

When it's 11,750 to one I wouldn't think to call it arguing, unless perhaps you are merely trolling. One way for you to find out would be to read the 11,750 reviews and see how many mention astringency. This is your homework assignment for tonight. Report back with your findings in the morning. And I might add that only you are arguing by the way.

You're a lost cause, mashing as high as your theory suggest is a fools errand.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Whenever anyone makes a claim, the burden of proof is upon them, and no one else. Of such is why I continue to supply peer reviewed proof from important brewing people to support my contention that underlies this thread.

If someone claims that a beer which ranks 100 out of 100 fails with astringency, the burden of proof is likewise on them alone. I merely suggested 11,750 ways to confirm such proof.

 

[aeviaanah]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com

 

[Die_Beerery]

Lol.

 

[Qhrumphf]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com

*raises and shakes hand* I know I know I know!

Argumentum ad populum.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer, 18th century Philosopher

While this is true enough often enough, and thus we are witnessing it right here, it still begs the question "What is the truth". That is where combing through peer reviewed documents comes in handy, It takes a lot more patience and effort to comb through myriads of documents about brewing than to ridicule and then outright oppose.

A bit of contra evidence from the peer reviewed dissertations of yore would go much farther in benefiting all of us on the forum than does mere ridiculing.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I am fine with and give due credence to peer reviewed sources.

RateBeer is not that. That's all.

 

[bob1852]

You are of course completely free to voice your individual and independent opinion, but a total of roughly 11,750 other of such independent and unsolicited ratings averaging to perfect scores across the two well regarded rating agencies I listed might just potentially indicate otherwise.

Breweries certainly solicit people to rate their beers on those sites...

While I have no proof, I do suspect some offer rewards in one way or another for high ratings (as has been proven with other rating sites not related to beer).

 

[Qhrumphf]

Breweries certainly solicit people to rate their beers on those sites...

While I have no proof, I do suspect some offer rewards in one way or another for high ratings (as has been proven with other rating sites not related to beer).

While I don't doubt that in some cases, I think it's more bandwagon (and bandwagon fallacy) and confirmation bias than outright fraud/fixing.

 

[bob1852]

While I don't doubt that in some cases, I think it's more bandwagon (and bandwagon fallacy) and confirmation bias than outright fraud/fixing.

So not only not unsolicited, but also not independent.

 

[dmtaylor]

Breweries certainly solicit people to rate their beers on those sites...

While I have no proof, I do suspect some offer rewards in one way or another for high ratings (as has been proven with other rating sites not related to beer).

I'm pretty sure Ratebeer was recently bought by ABInbev.

 

[Paulaner]

Arthur Schopenhauer, 18th century Philosopher

While this is true enough often enough, and thus we are witnessing it right here, it still begs the question "What is the truth". That is where combing through peer reviewed documents comes in handy, It takes a lot more patience and effort to comb through myriads of documents about brewing than to ridicule and then outright oppose.

A bit of contra evidence from the peer reviewed dissertations of yore would go much farther in benefiting all of us on the forum than does mere ridiculing.

I'm not ridiculing you, and not sure if you're trying to imply something with this comment, but I've read Kunze from front cover to back cover at minimum 3 times, I've also read hundreds of scientific brew studies, along with keeping up with Brauwelt, so I would say that I'm well read on brewing science. I also have years of experience with Belgium, German, and Czech Beer directly from the sources.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but can we call it 'Belgian' beer, rather than 'Belgium' beer. Belgium beer would be disgusting. Belgian beer is delicious.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but can we call it 'Belgian' beer, rather than 'Belgium' beer. Belgium beer would be disgusting. Belgian beer is delicious.

It's nails on chalkboard for me too.

But Belgium beer goes nice with France fries, or a cheese Denmark. But not as good as America IPA.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So far it seems as if the weakest link in my contention is the credibility of BeerAdvocate and RateBeer. I'm amazed at how a contention rooted in peer reviewed data and discussion witnessed therein can get sidetracked by endlessly exploiting such a weak link as this, as if it has an impact upon what the beer masters of yore had to say. When will the contra-data from peer reviewed documents of significance and relevance be presented and discussed in refutation of my contention?