whiskey beer

[jonp9576]

so i was watching modern marvels the other day on whiskey. i noticed that they seem to mash, ferment then distill. what if i were to take this process without the distillation.

say i were to come up with the same grain bill that a whiskey company uses. i would add hops, but would any of the flavors be similar in the fermented product?

i am assuming no since i've heard that most of the flavors come from the barrel.

so say i were to age this beer in a barrel?

let me be clear here. i am not trying to distill anything. i am just intriuged that the process of making beer and whiskey seemed so similar.

thoughts?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

A lot of American Whiskey distillers use a corn mash. Some add sugar as well. You're right about the whiskey character coming largely from the barrel and years of expansion and contraction in the charred oak. They basically start with white lightening and 4+ years later end up with caramel colored liquid gold.

If you were to use an all grain mash (perhaps a sour mash?), add moderate hops, and age in charred oak barrels, you'd likely end up with a fine beer. You might also consider adding some Maker's Mark or other quality bourbon to your secondary fermenter or bright tank to give a little whiskey character to it if that's what you're shooting for.

TB

 

[GuldTuborg]

I think you're right in that most of the flavors of whisk(e)y come from the barreling and aging. If you really want a glimpse at what undistilled "whiskey" (aka beer) tastes like, order some distillers' yeast and make a big beer from it, around 20%+. Drink that, totally flat. I'd be surprised if you got through more than a couple ounces.

 

[pedominguez]

I think what you've discovered is that whiskey is basically distilled beer.

 

[jppostKW]

I work part time a local distillery. their grist for the whiskey is 75% Marris Otter and 25 % Rye step mashed at 122 and 150 the OG is usually around 1.08 and use distillers yeast not turbo because it adds horrible off flavors that come thru in the final product there isn't a boil jsut a 180 degree mash out to unstick the mash. I made a similar mash at home boiled it hopped like a mid range pale and besides the sticky mash it turned out amazing.

The way to get whiskey flavor in beer is to soak some oak chips in your choice of whiskey and add it to secondary. the stouts porters old ales and other flavor intensive styles are best suited for whiskey chip aging

cheers

 

[jonp9576]

ok, so i am going to need some oak chips.

i remember trying a cask conditioned beer. i dont remember what it was called. it had a snowman on the tap handle with sin glasses on. it had this warm bite to it. i dont want to say burn because it wasnt, but there was something different about it. is the cask conditioning a similar concept?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

First, let me tell you, you're not going to get a whiskey flavor from adding wood chips to your fermenters. If you're soaking them in whiskey first, why not just pour a little whiskey in the secondary and save your chips for beers that you want cask conditioned flavor from? Cask beer and whiskey flavor are totally different.

Now, if you can get your hands on a used charred American White Oak barrel, by all means pick it up and age your beer in it. Longer the better, and rotate it into rooms with slightly different temperatures every 6 months. You will get a whiskey flavor from that.

Adding a little Maker's Mark or Knob Creek to your secondary will add some good whiskey character to your beer, without the need for oak barrels or wood chips. Try it sometime; you'll be surprised at how easy and tasty it is.

TB

 

[jonp9576]

thanks for the info. now heres the question. what kind of beer should i add the whiskey to. just a pale? how bout a brown ale?

 

[GuldTuborg]

A pale ale with whiskey sounds terrible. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't be the first in line to try it. I'd go with a porter or stout.

 

[jppostKW]

First, let me tell you, you're not going to get a whiskey flavor from adding wood chips to your fermenters. If you're soaking them in whiskey first, why not just pour a little whiskey in the secondary and save your chips for beers that you want cask conditioned flavor from? Cask beer and whiskey flavor are totally different.

Now, if you can get your hands on a used charred American Red Oak barrel, by all means pick it up and age your beer in it. Longer the better, and rotate it into rooms with slightly different temperatures every 6 months. You will get a whiskey flavor from that.

Adding a little Maker's Mark or Knob Creek to your secondary will add some good whiskey character to your beer, without the need for oak barrels or wood chips. Try it sometime; you'll be surprised at how easy and tasty it is.

TB

I respectfully disagree Tiber while it is easy to get the whiskey flavor by just adding in some Makers Mark, the oak chips soaked in whiskey add a level of complexity that just adding whiskey alone will not produce. The oak tannins are an integral part of what makes a good whiskey. to get these in a beer would require a large amount of whiskey, and this would add more of other stronger flavor compounds that don't go well in beer. IMO 2 ounces of medium toast American oak cubes soaked in pint of good whiskey, burbon, scotch, etc for a couple/few weeks than added to the ferementer including the pint of whiskey in a good stout, porter or scotish old ale until the desired taste is reached, will result in a much more flavor balanced beer than just adding a fifth of whiskey will. The whiskey flavor should be a back ground note along with the oakiness to a very robust beer. OP might be time for some gallon test batches. Hmm might be time for some test batches for me as well I haven't done an oaked old ale since December. might have to whiskey soak the next batch.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I respectfully disagree Tiber while it is easy to get the whiskey flavor by just adding in some Makers Mark, the oak chips soaked in whiskey add a level of complexity that just adding whiskey alone will not produce. The oak tannins are an integral part of what makes a good whiskey. to get these in a beer would require a large amount of whiskey, and this would add more of other stronger flavor compounds that don't go well in beer. IMO 2 ounces of medium toast American oak cubes soaked in pint of good whiskey, burbon, scotch, etc for a couple/few weeks than added to the ferementer including the pint of whiskey in a good stout, porter or scotish old ale until the desired taste is reached, will result in a much more flavor balanced beer than just adding a fifth of whiskey will. The whiskey flavor should be a back ground note along with the oakiness to a very robust beer. OP might be time for some gallon test batches. Hmm might be time for some test batches for me as well I haven't done an oaked old ale since December. might have to whiskey soak the next batch.

Well, you raise a couple good points, but I still must disagree that adding oak chips to beer will give it whiskey flavor. One good point that you made is that adding oak chips to your secondary will add complexity that adding whiskey alone won't add. That's true, however it won't make it taste more like whiskey. It might add an oak essence that reminds one of whiskey, but keep in mind whiskey isn't aged in toasted oak chips. Charred White Oak and medium toasted Red Oak don't taste anything like each other, period. I don't know what else to tell you. Of course, feel free to add chips alone, or chips soaked in whiskey, or whatever you want. It will be a fine beer. Don't get me wrong. While it will be a great beer, it's like saying you can make water taste more like lemonade by adding limes.

Another good point you make is that the whiskey flavor should be a background character. That's true. When adding any kind of whiskey to a fermenter or bright tank, you should start with modest amounts until you've reached your desired effect. Same applies when using chips. Don't add a fifth of whiskey to beer, or a half pound of chips to it either. I can't imagine that coming out well. It really is all about balance, and it's not really difficult to achieve that.

I'd say it's a good idea to do some experiments. Split up a batch of beer, save a control, and modify the rest of the partitions with different methods that we mentioned. Please share the results if you do!

TB

 

[jonp9576]

i love all the points being brought up here. so here is the plan. to test these options maybe i will make a beer(recipe to be determined) do the primary fermentation as a 5 gallon batch. then i will separate to 5 one gallon containers for secondary ferm. one will remain a control. maybe one will get a few oak chips, another will get whiskey soaked chips, another just whiskey and last maybe i can char some oak with a torch and add them. do you see a down side to charring the oak chips myself?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

i love all the points being brought up here. so here is the plan. to test these options maybe i will make a beer(recipe to be determined) do the primary fermentation as a 5 gallon batch. then i will separate to 5 one gallon containers for secondary ferm. one will remain a control. maybe one will get a few oak chips, another will get whiskey soaked chips, another just whiskey and last maybe i can char some oak with a torch and add them. do you see a down side to charring the oak chips myself?

That sounds like a great experiment. I would do a little research about charring your own oak. There's plenty of information out there about that. Be sure to document everything you do in this experiment; I'm sure there's quite a few people interested in the results.

Good luck!
TB

 

[sorefingers23]

ok so im gonna do some experimenting with this, and was try to figure out what kind of beer to start my recipe as, i was thinking maybe a brown beer, scotch ale, or a stout. what do you guys think about those options?

 

[jonp9576]

i have been injured for the last few months, and i am finally starting to be able to move around again. i had 2 surgeries on my leg. now, back to brewing.

so whats the recipe. i am thinking something fairly simple, but "robust" in my mind, whiskey flavoring or characteristics dont seem subtle, so they might overpower if i were to use a blonde recipe, but at the same time, a porter might hide it all together. i am thinking a brown, or maybe even a red.

 

[jonp9576]

i think i might have some friends over. everyone brings a sixer, or even some singles, and we try out some whiskey additions.

i was watching brewmasters the other day and it seemed like they were trying their ingredients out by tossing them in a mild flavored beer. they were making that Egyptian beer and they were testing the spices.

 

[sorefingers23]

i think i might have some friends over. everyone brings a sixer, or even some singles, and we try out some whiskey additions.

i was watching brewmasters the other day and it seemed like they were trying their ingredients out by tossing them in a mild flavored beer. they were making that Egyptian beer and they were testing the spices.

yah i was thinking of doing the same thing, im very interested in making this beer, im also thinking brown ale might be the best for this.

 

[Stratotankard]

Take a google for Kentucky Common. It's an old style of American beer basically a partigyle made from the sour mash used to make Bourbon whiskey plus a small amount of dark crystal malt. It has a fairly high percentage of corn in the mash. There are only a couple of commercial examples still produced, but at one time it was one of the most common beers in the midwest.

The batch I made used 40% corn and 55% 6-row with the rest a mix of crystal 60 and 120 I had on hand. It came out a medium brown and the 24 hour sour mash gave it a slight tang. I could see adding a bit of Jack to it and aging with some oak to give it some more character.

Terje

 

[HexKrak]

If you want a beer that tastes like bourbon (using bourbon as an ingredient) I've accidentally made it (while trying to get something with hints of bourbon barrel aged beer).

3 gallon boil
6.5lbs Light LME
3lbs two row (Us)
1lb Special B
1lb Crystal 20L
2oz Chinook hops 90min
1oz Chinook Hops 5 min
Nottingham yeast (pitched according to packet directions)

Steeped the grain at 155*F for 45 min.
Next I added the Light LME and brought it up to a boil.
As soon as it started to boil I added the 2oz of Hops and let it go until the last 5 minutes where I added the last 1oz of hops and the Irish moss.
At this point I pitched the nottingham in warm water.
Then I cooled to 80*F and slowly brought the nottingham up to 80*F by slowly adding the cooled wort.

When I tested the SG I found I nailed the 1.075-6 mark.

After the beer was safely in the closet I put about 2 cups of toasted oak chips in some bourbon (~1 cup) for a week and added that directly to the primary. I’ll let the beer age for 2 more weeks on the oak.

The FG was around 1.016.

I bottled and carbbed normally with 3/4 cup of corn sugar.

After 2 weeks in the bottle this stuff still tastes more like bourbon than anything. I'll check back on it in a couple months.

What I should have done, to get what I was looking for, would be to strain off the bourbon (and drink it normally), then dry the oak chips in the oven for an hour or so.

 

[theschick]

subscribing to this thread, sounds interesting!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I think a porter would take this whiskey flavoring well. I know I've had a vanilla burbon porter that really impressed me, and removing the vanilla aspect wouldn't hurt it by any means.

Start with your favorite porter recipe. Prior to brewing, put some oak chips on a fifth of Makers Mark and let it sit for 3 months. Remove the chips, add them to the secondary carboy for a couple weeks, at bottling/kegging, add a few ounces of that Makers Mark that had the chips in it to the bottling bucket/corny keg.

That would be my recommendation. I've never tired this, but my mouth waters just thinking about it. I just might have to try this...

TB

 

[sorefingers23]

I think a porter would take this whiskey flavoring well. I know I've had a vanilla burbon porter that really impressed me, and removing the vanilla aspect wouldn't hurt it by any means.

Start with your favorite porter recipe. Prior to brewing, put some oak chips on a fifth of Makers Mark and let it sit for 3 months. Remove the chips, add them to the secondary carboy for a couple weeks, at bottling/kegging, add a few ounces of that Makers Mark that had the chips in it to the bottling bucket/corny keg.

That would be my recommendation. I've never tired this, but my mouth waters just thinking about it. I just might have to try this...

TB

would i really need to soak the chips for 3 months?? i was hoping to try this as soon as i plan out a recipe

how much oak chips would i need?

 

[Tiber_Brew]

would i really need to soak the chips for 3 months?? i was hoping to try this as soon as i plan out a recipe

how much oak chips would i need?

A lot of that is up to you, but when me and some buddies brewed something before that involved soaking something in whiskey, we let it soak for 3 months. You could probably get away with a couple weeks, but if you have the time, soak as long as you can.

As far as how much oak chips, I'd say about a cup to 1.5 cups is what I'd use. That will also depend on how much oak chip flavor you want. Keep in mind the oak chips are toasted not charred like burbon barrels are. They impart an entirely different flavor than a whiskey barrel does, hence the soaking in whiskey for an extended period of time beforehand.

TB

 

[sorefingers23]

over the week end took a bottle of the "ed worts robust porter" that i brewed a while ago, and i tried adding some whiskey to the beer. I tried one glass with just the beer, 1 glass with 1/2 ounce of whiskey, and another with 1 ounce of whiskey. I must say that it tasted pretty good, not so much whiskey taste that it over powers the beer, just a slight note of whiskey.

But for some reason i see this working with a brown beer, anyone have any recomended brown ale recipes?

 

[krebs119]

I might be a little late to comment on this thread, but I brewed something similar to this about a year ago. I took AHS's Oaked Porter and added some Maker's to it. I essentially brewed the kit as per the directions. I took the oak chips that came with the kit, soaked them in a pint glass full of Maker's for about 2 weeks (during my primary essentially). Then I put the beer in secondary, and poured the oak chips and bourbon right in. I let that sit for maybe another month and bottled.

My results were a very smooth beer, with a great taste. Early on I really tasted the bourbon, but it seemed to mellow out over time. I had one of the last bottles about a month ago and the oak tastes seems to really be there now, with less of the bourbon. It's still a REALLY smooth beer, and turned out to be one of the favorites of all of my beer (and bourbon) snob friends. They still talk about it to this day, which they don't do about most of the rest of my brews.

I decided to take another shot at this soon. In November I brewed AHS's Our Special Holiday Ale and it turned out great. For xmas, my sister ended up getting me the same kit. It takes me a few months to kick a keg in my place, so I decided to to tweak the kit a bit this time. I'm going to brew it as per directions, plus a few lbs of dme. Like the Oaked Porter, I'm going to let it ferment itself, then when it's done I'm going to add oak chips again, which I will have soaked in bourbon again. I also decided to add 2-3 vanilla beans (also in the bourbon soak). The Holiday Ale comes with a spice pack which I won't use (it gives a complex gingerbread cookie taste, which I'm not looking for in a bourbon beer). I'm probably going to let this age a bit longer than last time.

I highly recommend trying this, especially if you're a bourbon drinker. I would suggest a wee heavy, porter, or stout though - MAYBE a brown.

I got my idea for this from a brewery in Kentucky. My friend brought home a few of these and shared them with me and I thought they were fantastic! http://www.kentuckyale.com/beer/Pages/KentuckyBourbonBarrelAle.aspx

Another good one that is similar is Bourbon County from Goose Island. I can find this a lot easier than the Kentucky brew. They are both sipping beers, and both are fantastic.

Good Luck!

 

[sorefingers23]

So this is my plan;
I'm going to soak an ounce or two oak chips in a fifth of bourbon for a few weeks, at the same time I'll be fermenting a robust porter, and when I rack to secondary I'll add the bourbon and oak chips for 2 - 3 weeks, and then bottle.

I'd like to hear some opinions on this, and if anyone has any advice I'd love to hear it

 

[krebs119]

Sounds good! I've done essentially this a few times now and it works out really well!

 

[electric_beer]

If you can find out any info on Angel's Share by Lost Abbey you will be damn close to whiskey beer. Try that beer and tell me it isn't reminiscent. Its aged in oak as well.

Also I would use oak cube and not chips. Chips have a ton of surface area and can over oak easily.

 

[Lunarpancake]

I just bottled a mini-mash kit from my local homebrew store called "Whiskey A-Go-Go". It involved me putting 1 pint of whiskey into a bag with cedar chips in it the night before brew day and then adding the bag of chips and whiskey to the fermenter.

On bottling day the brew smelled very whiskey like but not overpowering by any means. I am very excited to see how it ends up after 3 weeks conditioning and then again as it ages every few weeks after.


I can post the recipe from the homebrew store later today when i get home

 

[sorefingers23]

ok so i still havnt made this beer, im in the process of buying my first house, and have put brewing on hold until i get my house.

Anyways tonight i was at the local hardware store and noticed that they had oak chips made from old whiskey barrels in the bbq section, and was wondering if anyone has ever tried these for making beer?