Which electric controller?

[golfindia]

Thats a good question. I just assume they don't work well. I have probably 50 batches on the system since that post and the probes are still all over the place and require calibration every batch.

I've been using the same 4 DS18B20 probes for 5 years. They are all within a 0.5 degree of each other and I've never changed anything. The CFC probe is in thre sun......

If they do poop the bed, they are $1 each.

 

[jekeane]

I've been using the same 4 DS18B20 probes for 5 years. They are all within a 0.5 degree of each other and I've never changed anything. The CFC probe is in thre sun......

If they do poop the bed, they are $1 each.

I swapped a few of them out awhile back. Honestly I think its the controller on a whole. We have had to flash the drive twice and have had a few other issues with it. Our previous generation hosehead was great and had no issues for years until the brewery took a power surge and it died. This most recent version just hasn't worked as well.

 

[carpathia]

I swapped a few of them out awhile back. Honestly I think its the controller on a whole. We have had to flash the drive twice and have had a few other issues with it. Our previous generation hosehead was great and had no issues for years until the brewery took a power surge and it died. This most recent version just hasn't worked as well.

Ouch. I had to flash it once when I powered it down without preforming the appropriate chants and rituals.

 

[BenniferBropez]

I have been considering either the Brew Commander or the Auber Cube but have been leaning toward the Auber. I am wondering if I will be tied to a timer for both the Cube and Commander for mash and boil or do both the Cube and Commander allow one to boil and mash without a timer?

I have also been wondering about the difference between the Cube and the Commander when it comes to using a percentage of the power on output and if one works better than the other in this regard. My thinking is that I would use a 5500 watt element in a rims tube to heat strike water quickly and then use only a percentage of the power to control the mash while recirculating. I know that the Cube allows for pulsing the element and I see the Commander has a percentage power function but is there any difference between them in this regard? Is one better than the other?

Thanks,
Ben

 

[doug293cz]

I have been considering either the Brew Commander or the Auber Cube but have been leaning toward the Auber. I am wondering if I will be tied to a timer for both the Cube and Commander for mash and boil or do both the Cube and Commander allow one to boil and mash without a timer?

I have also been wondering about the difference between the Cube and the Commander when it comes to using a percentage of the power on output and if one works better than the other in this regard. My thinking is that I would use a 5500 watt element in a rims tube to heat strike water quickly and then use only a percentage of the power to control the mash while recirculating. I know that the Cube allows for pulsing the element and I see the Commander has a percentage power function but is there any difference between them in this regard? Is one better than the other?

Thanks,
Ben

You can use the Auber Cube (EZBoil based) without having to set timers. I can't answer for the BrewCommander.

Both should be equally power efficient, as both use SSR's for power switching/modulation. The EZBoils have faster cycle times (shorter "on" cycles) than ordinary PID's, which is advantageous for a high powered element in a RIMS, where you don't want to locally overheat the wort. I don't know how the BrewCommander cycle time compares to ordinary PID's or EZBoils.

Brew on

 

[tmendick]

My thinking is that I would use a 5500 watt element in a rims tube to heat strike water quickly and then use only a percentage of the power to control the mash while recirculating.

Separate point, but I doubt you'd need/want a 5500W RIMs element. I would think you would use a 5500w element in the HLT or boil kettle to bring to strike temp. I know the 240v RIMs Rocket from Blichmann is only 3500w.

 

[BenniferBropez]

You can use the Auber Cube (EZBoil based) without having to set timers. I can't answer for the BrewCommander.

Both should be equally power efficient, as both use SSR's for power switching/modulation. The EZBoils have faster cycle times (shorter "on" cycles) than ordinary PID's, which is advantageous for a high powered element in a RIMS, where you don't want to locally overheat the wort. I don't know how the BrewCommander cycle time compares to ordinary PID's or EZBoils.

Brew on

Thank you Doug for the reply. That is good to know about not being tied to a timer with the EZboils. It sounds like the EZboils have the ability to effectively reduce the possibility of scorching wort when the short on cycle. Is the time the element is on adjustable at all. For instance in the way a unit with power width modulation is? Can I assign a value to the EZboil that will change the portion of the cycle the element is on?

Thank you,
Ben

 

[BenniferBropez]

Separate point, but I doubt you'd need/want a 5500W RIMs element. I would think you would use a 5500w element in the HLT or boil kettle to bring to strike temp. I know the 240v RIMs Rocket from Blichmann is only 3500w.

Point taken tmendick. I had considered a 5500 watt element might just be unnecessary as well. Perhaps heating the strike water quickly in the HLT with a 5500 watt element first and pumping it over to the mash to be maintained with a more reasonably powered element would be a better option. I could then easily heat my sparge water in the HLT during mash with that high powered element.

Thank you,
Ben

 

[doug293cz]

Thank you Doug for the reply. That is good to know about not being tied to a timer with the EZboils. It sounds like the EZboils have the ability to effectively reduce the possibility of scorching wort when the short on cycle. Is the time the element is on adjustable at all. For instance in the way a unit with power width modulation is? Can I assign a value to the EZboil that will change the portion of the cycle the element is on?

Thank you,
Ben

Yes, the easy boil does something similar to pulse width modulation, but could more accurately be described as pulse count modulation. You can vary the EZBoil from 0% to 100% power in 1% increments, just by turning a knob.

Brew on

 

[Cato1507]

You can use the Auber Cube (EZBoil based) without having to set timers. I can't answer for the BrewCommander.

Both should be equally power efficient, as both use SSR's for power switching/modulation. The EZBoils have faster cycle times (shorter "on" cycles) than ordinary PID's, which is advantageous for a high powered element in a RIMS, where you don't want to locally overheat the wort. I don't know how the BrewCommander cycle time compares to ordinary PID's or EZBoils.

Brew on

The Ez boil sounds a bit more sophisticated from what I've read than my Brew Commander. The Brew Commander default is 5 sec cycles when pulsing but that parameter can be changed. I havent messed with it.

I always use my timers in the BC, but I'm pretty sure you can just set a temp and power percentage manually and not engage the timer. Of the nine different storable profiles, I only use 3. One for a single temp mash, another for a step mash, and third one is for my PBW 20 min cleaning cycle.

I think the touchscreen interface and display on the Brew Commander is pretty slick and at its price point was a no brainer for my single vessel eBIAB. Plug n play and simple learning curve appealed to me as a newbie to controllers. It's sure made my brew days better and less stressful.

 

[carpathia]

Can't go wrong with either. I use a hosehead. I personally really like having 3 separate thermometers going (Kettle-RIMS setup: 1 in the BK, 1 in the mash tun, and 1 in a t-intersection to control the element), but it is easily possible to get away with just 1. The one downside I can see to the brew commander is that you may not want the controller right next to the boiling water, should you have a spill or some other issue (my first brew, a hose jumped off my chilling coil out, which resulted in water spraying all over, both into my just-finished boiling pot and perilously close to the electronics). I'd be slightly more comfortable with a waterproof box like the Auber.

 

[Cato1507]

Can't go wrong with either. I use a hosehead. I personally really like having 3 separate thermometers going (Kettle-RIMS setup: 1 in the BK, 1 in the mash tun, and 1 in a t-intersection to control the element), but it is easily possible to get away with just 1. The one downside I can see to the brew commander is that you may not want the controller right next to the boiling water, should you have a spill or some other issue (my first brew, a hose jumped off my chilling coil out, which resulted in water spraying all over, both into my just-finished boiling pot and perilously close to the electronics). I'd be slightly more comfortable with a waterproof box like the Auber.

The Brew Commander has a 6-8 ft wire to the thermo couple and my boil coil cord is as long or longer. Still, you're right a spraying hose could possibly reach a controller no matter the make. Not sure if any of them are actually waterproof.

 

[carpathia]

I get around it now by brewing in an alcove where my water heater is with a door open to kinda seal it off, save for a 1 inch gap. If I move to a place without such a conveniently placed wall, I might build a plywood shelter for it. Water and electricity don't mix, even if it makes good beer.

 

[BenniferBropez]

So I wrote Auber about the using a percentage of the power during the mash and this was their response.

"The Cube 2E or 2S is installed with DSPR320 controller. On DSPR320, you can lower the output percentage when the heating is in the acceleration phase, using the parameter mOUT. But once the temperature is within certain degrees of the target mashing temperature, the mOUT limit will on longer be effective. The controller will decide what power percentage to use, ranging from 0% to 100%. Hope that can answer your question. Let me know."

It looks like during the mash the Cube adjusts the power output for the user and that it can't be manipulated.

Ben

 

[Cato1507]

So I wrote Auber about the using a percentage of the power during the mash and this was their response.

"The Cube 2E or 2S is installed with DSPR320 controller. On DSPR320, you can lower the output percentage when the heating is in the acceleration phase, using the parameter mOUT. But once the temperature is within certain degrees of the target mashing temperature, the mOUT limit will on longer be effective. The controller will decide what power percentage to use, ranging from 0% to 100%. Hope that can answer your question. Let me know."

It looks like during the mash the Cube adjusts the power output for the user and that it can't be manipulated.

Ben

I don't know much about controllers but that doesn't seem to make much sense. Even on my Brew Commander I can adjust power output during mash or boil.

 

[BenniferBropez]

I don't know much about controllers but that doesn't seem to make much sense. Even on my Brew Commander I can adjust power output during mash or boil.

It doesn't make much sense to me either Cato. I was under the impression that you could adjust the power output during mash.

Ben

 

[doug293cz]

So I wrote Auber about the using a percentage of the power during the mash and this was their response.

"The Cube 2E or 2S is installed with DSPR320 controller. On DSPR320, you can lower the output percentage when the heating is in the acceleration phase, using the parameter mOUT. But once the temperature is within certain degrees of the target mashing temperature, the mOUT limit will on longer be effective. The controller will decide what power percentage to use, ranging from 0% to 100%. Hope that can answer your question. Let me know."

It looks like during the mash the Cube adjusts the power output for the user and that it can't be manipulated.

Ben

I don't know much about controllers but that doesn't seem to make much sense. Even on my Brew Commander I can adjust power output during mash or boil.

It doesn't make much sense to me either Cato. I was under the impression that you could adjust the power output during mash.

Ben

I don't know of any PID's used in homebrew controllers that allow the user to limit the power while the controller is in automatic temperature control mode. It's the job of the controller to determine the power required to maintain the setpoint temperature. During a mash the power will typically be less than 25%, so setting a manual upper limit is not really of much use. The whole point of automatic temperature control is to let the controller figure it out, so you don't have to do it manually.

Where you need to be able to manually set the power is during boil, since boiling happens at a temperature determined by physics, and not the power input. Higher power inputs cause more vigorous boiling and more evaporation, but no increase in temperature when boiling.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

The auber DSPR120, which is the more basic of the two EZboils does not have a power limiter during temperature mode. The DSPR320 which is the more complicated (or you could say feature-rich) "step mash" programmable unit and it does have the mOUT parameter that is like a power limiter during the mash mode. As doug said, power limiting is not common on most controllers and the Brew Commander may be the first one that puts that right on the front home screen. However, it's not something that's a part of the programmable mash profile. I mean I don't know if you can retain the max power setting while the step mash program is running.

I think I had a phone conversation with @BenniferBropez about this and based on the idea of using the RIMS for both heating strike and then using it for mash temp control I had mentioned that the two goals were somewhat mutually exclusive in design. That is to say that for water heating, you want as much power as possible. While mashing, you really only want as much power as you need to get the RIMS output temp to your setpoint and nothing more. This is a difficult concept to communicate. If you have a 5500 watt element in a small RIMS tube, flow rate through the tube and the given controller's minimum cycle time is going to be the difference between solid output temps and making a cylinder of caramel. You want the RIMS output temp to be exactly what you set on the controller with no oscillation but that's hard to do with very high powered elements. Even with a short pulse, it may heat the wort hotter than the set point. It may be that the best compromise is a 3500 watt element.

I think I need to setup a 240V RIMS and have a shootout between the two controllers otherwise this is just speculation.

 

[BrunDog]

... idea of using the RIMS for both heating strike and then using it for mash temp control I had mentioned that the two goals were somewhat mutually exclusive in design. That is to say that for water heating, you want as much power as possible. While mashing, you really only want as much power as you need to get the RIMS output temp to your setpoint and nothing more. This is a difficult concept to communicate. If you have a 5500 watt element in a small RIMS tube, flow rate through the tube and the given controller's minimum cycle time is going to be the difference between solid output temps and making a cylinder of caramel. You want the RIMS output temp to be exactly what you set on the controller with no oscillation but that's hard to do with very high powered elements. Even with a short pulse, it may heat the wort hotter than the set point. It may be that the best compromise is a 3500 watt element.

I think I need to setup a 240V RIMS and have a shootout between the two controllers otherwise this is just speculation.

This is definitely not mutually exclusive in my opinion. On my personal rig, I use a 5500W element with a high/low power feed to do both. Element runs at 240VAC (5500W) for strike heating, sparge water heating, mashout, and cleaning. Runs at 120VAC (1375W) for mash temp control and step mashing. I use a relay to switch between the two automatically (switches an element leg between LINE 2 and NEUTRAL), but this could be done with a manual switch too. You even tested this a while back, Bobby.

With advanced software controls, this can power switching can be controlled entirely in software, adjusting control parameters and output limit to 25% to run on 240VAC full time, but hardware above can be quick path otherwise.

Now, regarding the "caramel cylinder"... that is a legit concern. It can be mitigated however with appropriate operation and hardware. Turbulence, mounting, flowrate, and element density are all important factors. I initially used a 5500W foldback wrapped in stainless wire to create turbulence and spread out heat, but have since implemented a purpose-made RIMS element which has the same power density as the wave foldbacks we use in the BK.

 

[Cato1507]

The auber DSPR120, which is the more basic of the two EZboils does not have a power limiter during temperature mode. The DSPR320 which is the more complicated (or you could say feature-rich) "step mash" programmable unit and it does have the mOUT parameter that is like a power limiter during the mash mode. As doug said, power limiting is not common on most controllers and the Brew Commander may be the first one that puts that right on the front home screen. However, it's not something that's a part of the programmable mash profile. I mean I don't know if you can retain the max power setting while the step mash program is running.

I think I had a phone conversation with @BenniferBropez about this and based on the idea of using the RIMS for both heating strike and then using it for mash temp control I had mentioned that the two goals were somewhat mutually exclusive in design. That is to say that for water heating, you want as much power as possible. While mashing, you really only want as much power as you need to get the RIMS output temp to your setpoint and nothing more. This is a difficult concept to communicate. If you have a 5500 watt element in a small RIMS tube, flow rate through the tube and the given controller's minimum cycle time is going to be the difference between solid output temps and making a cylinder of caramel. You want the RIMS output temp to be exactly what you set on the controller with no oscillation but that's hard to do with very high powered elements. Even with a short pulse, it may heat the wort hotter than the set point. It may be that the best compromise is a 3500 watt element.

I think I need to setup a 240V RIMS and have a shootout between the two controllers otherwise this is just speculation.

I learn a lot from your posts @Bobby_M ! I'm glad you are so active/involved with this forum. I'm sure it helps quite a few others on here as well to have you as a resource.

 

[Bobby_M]

This is definitely not mutually exclusive in my opinion. On my personal rig, I use a 5500W element with a high/low power feed to do both. Element runs at 240VAC (5500W) for strike heating, sparge water heating, mashout, and cleaning. Runs at 120VAC (1375W) for mash temp control and step mashing. I use a relay to switch between the two automatically (switches an element leg between LINE 2 and NEUTRAL), but this could be done with a manual switch too. You even tested this a while back, Bobby.

With advanced software controls, this can power switching can be controlled entirely in software, adjusting control parameters and output limit to 25% to run on 240VAC full time, but hardware above can be quick path otherwise.

Now, regarding the "caramel cylinder"... that is a legit concern. It can be mitigated however with appropriate operation and hardware. Turbulence, mounting, flowrate, and element density are all important factors. I initially used a 5500W foldback wrapped in stainless wire to create turbulence and spread out heat, but have since implemented a purpose-made RIMS element which has the same power density as the wave foldbacks we use in the BK.

I also mentioned the 240/120 switch in the phone conversation but he wasn't comfortable with DIY solutions and no commercial controllers offer it. I need to see if the BrewCommander has the logic to really avoid oscillation with that much power available both in 100% "allowed" mode and at various max powers set.