Where do you get your HCl aka Muriatic Acid

[GilaMinumBeer]

IIRC, 37% HCL is 12N and that is pretty darn concentrated. Its not going to take much HCL to drop your sparge water 2 pH units. Do you have the means to titrate and measure volumes correctly/accurately?

Yes. And that is part of my point. Other available acids are requiring too much to get the results I am seeking. So, I am looking for a stronger source for better results.

I checked my local school lab supply and they do not stock H3PO4. Special order only and costwise would be no different than ordering a smaller quantity from OHBS plus hazard costs.

If I can find a good local source for small quantities of H3PO4 I will go that route first but, I haven't found anything yet that is open to public.

 

[mordantly]

HCL is hydrocloric acid. not muriatic.

 

[lamarguy]

HCL is hydrocloric acid aka muriatic acid.

Fixed that for ya!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

HCL is hydrocloric acid. not muriatic.

Muriatic is an industry aka for Hydrochloric (HCl). Although, in some rare cases Sulphuric (H2SO4) is reffered as Muriatic.

 

[ChemSlug]

Yeah. So, I am just gonna use Muriatic from a pool supply. After much consideration and reasearch I find no indication that a "Food Grade" HCl is any cleaner than an "Industrial Grade". In fact, what I am finding is that the food grade stuff is a thinner dilution.

Plus, when you consider the amount of water that gets ingested at swimming pools I can't imagine that the dilution would be any different for my use.

If anyone has a convincing argument otherwise, I am all ears.

Have you taken any chemistry courses? You want the more dilute concentration. You have to take into consideration that the pool cleaners are pouring small quantities (a liter or two) of Conc HCl (12M=37%=Conc.) into large quantities of water (say 40,000) to change the pH by a few units. Conc HCl is dangerous. Pool chemical manufacturers are assuming the dilution is done quickly, outdoors with good ventilation, using a small quantity of HCl in comparison to a large quantity of water. Your probably not going to need more than 100 milliters of the diluted stuff.

Pharmaceutical quality: Clean and colorless air-fuming solution with pungent odor.

Technical/Industry quality: Colorless or slightly yellowish air-fuming solution with pungent odor.
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The yellow is due to trace quantities of iron, not much of a concern.

 

[mordantly]

well, dip me in **** and call me a sunday. didn't know that.

 

[broadbill]

Have you taken any chemistry courses? You want the more dilute concentration. You have to take into consideration that the pool cleaners are pouring small quantities (a liter or two) of Conc HCl (12M=37%=Conc.) into large quantities of water (say 40,000) to change the pH by a few units. Conc HCl is dangerous. Pool chemical manufacturers are assuming the dilution is done quickly, outdoors with good ventilation, using a small quantity of HCl in comparison to a large quantity of water. Your probably not going to need more than 100 milliters of the diluted stuff.

I agree....I think 37%=12N HCL is going to be way overkill for dropping your sparge water 2 pH units, just because of the amount you will have to measure/add to something that does not have any buffering capacity (i.e. water).

My advice if you are really sold on this idea would be to first dilute the 37% tenfold (1:10) or so (100ml into 900ml) and use that to adjust your sparge water. Even then I'm not sure if you'll be in the right ballpark...you might have to go 1:100 or 1:1000 and use that. This is assuming you can safely dilute the concentrated stuff without destroying your mucus membranes.

I've used 12N HCL plenty, but never to pH water.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Have you taken any chemistry courses?

No. But, I never took shop either and I can still operate a CNC, a lathe, and varnish a tobaggin.

Yes. I realize the minute quantities of HCl I will need to achieve the result I am after. I have borosilicate pipettes and a quality pH meter and the common sense enough to titrate my 14 gallons of liquor drop by drop with pH checks bewteen.

But, thanks for the vote of confidence.

I would much rather buy a 100mL bottle than a full gallon purely for storage convienience but, I haven't found that quantity to be easily attainable from a local source, yet.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I agree....I think 37%=12N HCL is going to be way overkill for dropping your sparge water 2 pH units, just because of the amount you will have to measure/add to something that does not have any buffering capacity (i.e. water).

My advice if you are really sold on this idea would be to first dilute the 37% tenfold (1:10) or so (100ml into 900ml) and use that to adjust your sparge water. Even then I'm not sure if you'll be in the right ballpark...you might have to go 1:100 or 1:1000 and use that. This is assuming you can safely dilute the concentrated stuff without destroying your mucus membranes.

I've used 12N HCL plenty, but never to pH water.

The 37% is just one source. I have also seen dilutions of 30% but they were yellow. If the yellow is just trace iron then I am okay with that, too.

 

[Rushis]

The yellow is due to trace quantities of iron, not much of a concern.

The yellow color can come from any numbers of chemicals, iron being only one of the multitude of things that can get in there. But you knew that from chemistry classes

@GilaMinumBeer

I would not reccommend using any industrial/technical (or reagent grade for that matter) chemicals for adjusting your water. The Technical/Industrial chemicals do not have the same tolerances for impurities (or in some cases may not be checked at all) that food grade or pharmaceutical grade materials would. If you choose something other than food/pharmaceutical grade check the certificate analysis to make sure the acid has passed the tests for things like heavy metals, chromium, and extractable organic substances.

I wish I could help suggest a supplier, but outside of a laboratory/university setting I have no idea how to obtain concentrated acids.

I do have a question about your choice of HCl, are you concerned about the sulfate/chloride ratio in your water? The HCl may alter that ratio to a significant degree if you add enough. Naturally, the phosphoric acid would not have this problem, but I have no idea what effect phosphate has on the brewing process (are phosphate levels adjusted in brewing water?).

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I do have a question about your choice of HCl, are you concerned about the sulfate/chloride ratio in your water? The HCl may alter that ratio to a significant degree if you add enough. Naturally, the phosphoric acid would not have this problem, but I have no idea what effect phosphate has on the brewing process (are phosphate levels adjusted in brewing water?).

Choice is based on local availability, not necessarily preference, and the context of "less is more" combined with previous products used exceeding the taste threshold to achive desired result.

Basically, if I buy 500mL of H3PO4 at 85% it's going to cost me ~$24 plus shipping and Hazard fees. But, if I go get this 1 gallon jug of 30% to 37% HCl from Leslies pools it'll cost me ~$30 with no wait for shipping or fees. That is why I am looking into HCl more closely.

I do appreciate the concerns but again I am used to handling caustics with care. I routinely use a Nitric/Phosphoric blend for cleaning my system. I forget the actual concentrations but it has a concentrated pH of 1.2. Sure, it's not a 37% HCl but it's also not something to handle lightly.

 

[Rushis]

If "less is more" is the mantra here, then the phosphoric acid will be best bang for your buck. Given your water starts at pH 9.5 and you want to reach a pH = 7, then every molecule of phosphoric acid is giving you two equivalents of acid (H+), whereas the HCl can only give one. You have to add the same amount of "acidic equivalents" regardless of the acid.

Comparing the two acid choices and considering the amount of counterion they will leave in solution:
Conc. of Phosphate = 2 x Conc. of Chloride

Convenience usually wins out in these scenario's but having the information can't hurt.

 

[opteek]

When it comes to chemicals, industrial grade will almost always be the purer product. You can get HCL acid at any hardware store around here; home depot, ace hardware, loews, etc.. The container usually has the chemical ingredients listed. I've bought it a couple of times for various things and it's always been 100% HCL acid of various concentrations. Also, I'm going to go on a small limb here and say that you don't really need too worry too much about safety at the concentrations we're talking about. Obviously don't splash it or drink it but don't have to worry too much.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Convenience usually wins out in these scenario's but having the information can't hurt.

Agreed 100%. Which is why this thread has become invaluable to me. If only I could find some H3PO4 local.

 

[Rushis]

When it comes to chemicals, industrial grade will almost always be the purer product.

Can your provide support for that statement? From Sigma-Aldrich Industrial/Technical grade chemicals typically run form 87% to 98% purity, whereas Reagent grade runs 98%-99%+ and Pharmaceutical grade 99.9%+.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Agreed 100%. Which is why this thread has become invaluable to me. If only I could find some H3PO4 local.

Mid-America Chemical

Phone: 405-670-0101, 800-749-6332 (toll free)
Fax: 405-670-9270

Might be worth giving them a call if only as a starting point.

 

[Bopper]

What about water conditioner used for aquariums? Just an idea but I don't know what the ingredients are and highly doubt its food grade.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Mid-America Chemical

Phone: 405-670-0101, 800-749-6332 (toll free)
Fax: 405-670-9270

Might be worth giving them a call if only as a starting point.

Thanks for this. Got them on the phone now.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

What about water conditioner used for aquariums? Just an idea but I don't know what the ingredients are and highly doubt its food grade.

Had looked at those as well as some soil conditioners too. Labels are crap but, I had not searched for the MSDS.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Let me know how it goes. I may be able to help if they can not.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Mid-America Chemical

Phone: 405-670-0101, 800-749-6332 (toll free)
Fax: 405-670-9270

Might be worth giving them a call if only as a starting point.

Thanks for this. Got them on the phone now.

Score 1 for the Huge Ass!

75% H3PO4 Pharm Grade, 1 Gallon, $33USD and (wait for it)

OPEN TO PUBLIC!

Thanks!

 

[Hugh_Jass]

cool. hope it works for you.

Cheers.

 

[bill2penn]

You might also consider this since you don't really need a gallon. It says it's food grade
http://www.hydroempire.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/199

Bill

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

cool. hope it works for you.

Cheers.

Me too brother.

Can't be any worse than the C3H6O3 or the C6H8O7. But, the latter does make way for some nice sugar.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Me too brother.

Can't be any worse than the C3H6O3 or the C6H8O7. But, the latter does make way for some nice sugar.

On another note, after a visit to MAC I discovered that they are also a less expensive source for bulkier purchases of my other commonly used water additive. Calcium Chloride. An extremely common compound that has been elusive to me in more than 4 oz baggies for ~$3 at LHBS. At MAC I can get 1 pound pelletized (size of BB's) for $6.

thanks again mr applebottom.

 

[lamarguy]

Calcium Chloride. At MAC I can get 1 pound pelletized (size of BB's) for $6.

Ya, that's an excellent source for bulk chemical purchases. I tend to purchase most of my water treatment supplies from Midwest.

Calcium Chloride- 1 lb. $3.95

Granted, the phosphoric acid is more 4x more expensive, but I only go through about 6 oz a year.

 

[pinkfloyd4ever]

others might have said this already, but I don't feel like checking all 6 pages..

but if you know any Chemistry profs or grad students...