Where do you get your HCl aka Muriatic Acid

[GilaMinumBeer]

I often see this as Masonry cleaner but doubt, seriously, it is pure and Food Safe for water treatment.

My tap water is very base with unsually high mineral and ion concentrations as supplied. To balance, I find I only need small amounts of mineral additions but addressing the pH is still an issue.

I have been using Lactic or Citric acids for this but find on the lighter beers some sourness comes through. Most recently, my water pH was at 9.3.

My thought is that smaller amounts of a stronger acid will counter this but I am having troubles sourcing a good product. Neither of my locals carry HCl. Heck, they don't even stock chalk. Another one I am having trouble locating a good source of.

 

[Professor Frink]

The problem with HCl is that at high concentrations it's quite corrosive. To find someone to ship it, it will probably be pretty dilute. That said, I can get you some powdered citric acid if you'd like.

 

[bonsai4tim]

Well, you can get a concentrated form called muriatic acid anywhere that has swimming pool supplies (like wal mart)--its used to adjust the pH of swimming pools.

It may be a larger amount than you want.

t

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Well, you can get a concentrated form called muriatic acid anywhere that has swimming pool supplies (like wal mart)--its used to adjust the pH of swimming pools.

It may be a larger amount than you want.

t

Yes but, is the "pool grade" stuff just HCl or does it have other things in the mix?

Dilute is fine. I just need an acid to counter high alkalinity without contributing a tartness or sour tinge. I have used Lactic and Citric and too much is needed to balance sparge water. Mashes get the benifit of the grain buffers.

 

[lamarguy]

If I may, what's wrong with phosphoric acid? Diluted, it's flavor threshold is pretty high and, at worst, your beer flavor is a bit sharper.

It also has a lower pH than lactic acid, so less is required to hit your sparge target. For my water (hard, high alkalinity, pH of 8), I need 1/8 tsp in ~3 gallons of sparge water to reach a pH of 6.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

If I may, what's wrong with phosphoric acid? Diluted, it's flavor threshold is pretty high and, at worst, your beer flavor is a bit sharper.

It also has a lower pH than lactic acid, so less is required to hit your sparge target. For my water (hard, high alkalinity, pH of 8), I need 1/8 tsp in ~3 gallons of sparge water to reach a pH of 6.

Haven't tried that yet. I assumed that it too might add the sour tinge.

Where to source? I have looked at LHBS and they don;t carry it either.

Googling gives info but no purchase source.

 

[adx]

I'd probably stay away from the pool quality acid. Although you probably need so little as to not really mater. What about using Five Star's 5.2 stabilizer?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I'd probably stay away from the pool quality acid. Although you probably need so little as to not really mater. What about using Five Star's 5.2 stabilizer?

It doesn't "lock in" the pH of my sparge water. This applies more to my sparge water and all I want to do there is get to pH 7.

With Lactic or Citric the water gets sour.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

If I may, what's wrong with phosphoric acid? Diluted, it's flavor threshold is pretty high and, at worst, your beer flavor is a bit sharper.

It also has a lower pH than lactic acid, so less is required to hit your sparge target. For my water (hard, high alkalinity, pH of 8), I need 1/8 tsp in ~3 gallons of sparge water to reach a pH of 6.

A fellow brewer uses this to balance his mash/sparge water.

Have you tried contacting a school science supply on line store?

http://store.schoolspecialtyonline.net/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=39158&minisite=10029

 

[lamarguy]

Where to source? I have looked at LHBS and they don;t carry it either.

I bought the concentrated form (85%) from cynmar last year. AHS sells the diluted form (10%) for $2.50 and I'm sure there are others.

Ya, phosphoric acid it the way to go for sparge water acidification. Unless you can get your hands on concentrated HCL and manage to not burn yourself!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I bought the concentrated form (85%) from cynmar last year. AHS sells the diluted form (10%) for $2.50 and I'm sure there are others.

Ya, phosphoric acid it the way to go for sparge water acidification. Unless you can get your hands on concentrated HCL and manage to not burn yourself!

Been using Nitric/Phos for deep cleaning and so far.....

Thanks for the link. I have one scientific supply nearby but, she's small and private and not answering the phone.

worst case, I am not skeered by the HCl. I know lots of folks that use it for their pools without incident. Although, it appears that stuff is a 37% dilution. But hey, what works, works.

 

[brewmonk]

If I may, I call my local Water Department once a year, and say "Hey, what's up? Hows the turbidity hangin'?"

Do you have a well? Cause I'd ask the W.D> to recommend something else.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

If I may, I call my local Water Department once a year, and say "Hey, what's up? Hows the turbidity hangin'?"

Do you have a well? Cause I'd ask the W.D> to recommend something else.

No well. Municiple supply from a liquid rock watershed.

I actually get monthly detailed chemistry analysis direct from the municiple lab via email. And verify starting pH with me own meter.

Over the years, I have grown really tired of hauling water from the store. The mineral/ion mix isn't so bad for my taste but the base pH is problematic.

 

[david_42]

I use pH 5.2 in the mash and for sparging. Why do you feel a pH of 7 is required for sparging?

 

[lamarguy]

I use pH 5.2 in the mash and for sparging. Why do you feel a pH of 7 is required for sparging?

The literature recommends a pH of 6 to prevent excessive tannin extraction. You can certainly go higher than 6 and make good beer, but the risk of tannin extraction will increase.

5.2 Buffer is an acceptable mash pH "safety/optimizing" mechanism (since the mash is already buffered) but it sucks at acidification. After input from Kaiser, I conducted some water pH experiments using 5.2 Buffer and I saw exactly how much is necessary to affect a change in 5 > pH > 6. My [hard] water would taste salty (side effect of 5.2 Buffer) before I hit anything close to a pH of 6.

 

[ChemSlug]

You finally found a way to get me to sign up for an account. Even if you can find concentrated HCl DO NOT BUY IT. Conc. HCl is a fuming reagent that MUST be handled in a fume hood. I'm a chemist by trade and have accidentally inhaled conc HCl and it wasn't fun. Had a burning in my chest for ~2 hours and felt sick and light headed for ~6 hours. I can not stress this enough, conc HCl should only be handled by a trained professional in a controlled enviroment.

Also, when handling almost any concentration of HCl wear eye protection. A small amount in the eye can cause irreparable damage. Your eyes don't regrow like skin.

/rant

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

You finally found a way to get me to sign up for an account. Even if you can find concentrated HCl DO NOT BUY IT. Conc. HCl is a fuming reagent that MUST be handled in a fume hood. I'm a chemist by trade and have accidentally inhaled conc HCl and it wasn't fun. Had a burning in my chest for ~2 hours and felt sick and light headed for ~6 hours. I can not stress this enough, conc HCl should only be handled by a trained professional in a controlled enviroment.

Also, when handling almost any concentration of HCl wear eye protection. A small amount in the eye can cause irreparable damage. Your eyes don't regrow like skin.

/rant

Don't sweat it bro. If I go with HCl I'll locate a bottle of 37% dilution as most of the calculators that include for HCl use this percentage.

 

[bill2penn]

Don't sweat it bro. If I go with HCl I'll locate a bottle of 37% dilution as most of the calculators that include for HCl use this percentage.

37% IS concentrated HCl. Higher than this and you would need a gas handling device.

I agree, BE CAREFUL, with concentrated (aka 37% HCL aka muriatic acid).

I would go with the phosphoric acid suggestion.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I use pH 5.2 in the mash and for sparging. Why do you feel a pH of 7 is required for sparging?

The literature recommends a pH of 6 to prevent excessive tannin extraction. You can certainly go higher than 6 and make good beer, but the risk of tannin extraction will increase.

5.2 Buffer is an acceptable mash pH "safety/optimizing" mechanism (since the mash is already buffered) but it sucks at acidification. After input from Kaiser, I conducted some water pH experiments using 5.2 Buffer and I saw exactly how much is necessary to affect a change in 5 > pH > 6. My [hard] water would taste salty (side effect of 5.2 Buffer) before I hit anything close to a pH of 6.

Yup. Same here. Have read many times over to not go below pH 6 and that pH 7 is optimal for sparge water. Prior to getting an actual pH meter, the cheap "beer range" pH strips had me convinced that 5.2 was working on my sparge water. Then I checked after I got my meter and saw that it wasn't doing much of anything to my sparge water. Maybe a drop of 1 or 2 pH. Sure, since pH is logarithmic that is a lot but, 1 pH drop from 9.3 barely gets the ball past the plate.

In the mash, different story. But, even there I'd like to have better control of what goes in.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

37% IS concentrated HCl. Higher than this and you would need a gas handling device.

I agree, BE CAREFUL, with concentrated (aka 37% HCL aka muriatic acid).

I would go with the phosphoric acid suggestion.

Yeah. I understand that. My point is I am not looking for a non diluted version and 37% seems in kind with what the pool supplies distribute. I just need to verify that the pool chemical is just diluted HCl and not a blended with something else or "dirty" in such a way that it shouldn't be used for mash or sparge water acidification.

If I can locate it local, I'll try the Phos. Acid but, I find it peculiar that here it's regarded as such a demon and yet "most" anyone with a pool has an almost "common" familiarity with it.

 

[ChemSlug]

Yeah. I understand that. My point is I am not looking for a non diluted version and 37% seems in kind with what the pool supplies distribute. I just need to verify that the pool chemical is just diluted HCl and not a blended with something else or "dirty" in such a way that it shouldn't be used for mash or sparge water acidification.

If I can locate it local, I'll try the Phos. Acid but, I find it peculiar that here it's regarded as such a demon and yet "most" anyone with a pool has an almost "common" familiarity with it.

The easiest way to find out what is in a solution is to look at the MSDS. The chemical manufacturer is required to by law to publish a MSDS for the reagent. On the 1st or 2nd page all compounds/elements/etc. beyond a certain trace level must be stated on the MSDS. A quick google search can turn up the MSDS for the solution you are looking at.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

The easiest way to find out what is in a solution is to look at the MSDS. The chemical manufacturer is required to by law to publish a MSDS for the reagent. On the 1st or 2nd page all compounds/elements/etc. beyond a certain trace level must be stated on the MSDS. A quick google search can turn up the MSDS for the solution you are looking at.

Thanks. I shoulda thought of that already considering the fact that I have tons of MSDS already. Doh!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Yeah. So, I am just gonna use Muriatic from a pool supply. After much consideration and reasearch I find no indication that a "Food Grade" HCl is any cleaner than an "Industrial Grade". In fact, what I am finding is that the food grade stuff is a thinner dilution.

Plus, when you consider the amount of water that gets ingested at swimming pools I can't imagine that the dilution would be any different for my use.

If anyone has a convincing argument otherwise, I am all ears.

 

[lamarguy]

After much consideration and reasearch I find no indication that a "Food Grade" HCl is any cleaner than an "Industrial Grade".

From wikipedia:

In industry demanding purity (food, pharmaceutical, drinking water), high-quality hydrochloric acid is used to control the pH of process water streams. In less-demanding industry, technical quality hydrochloric acid suffices for neutralizing waste streams and swimming pool treatment.

Pharmaceutical quality: Clean and colorless air-fuming solution with pungent odor.

Technical/Industry quality: Colorless or slightly yellowish air-fuming solution with pungent odor.

The standards for each HCL grade are listed here.

IMHO, I would NOT use the technical/industry grade unless you are somehow able to purify it (not likely) or obtain a quality report from the manufacturer. But this is guy who isn't about to ingest "ignition residue" or "organic pollution".

 

[broadbill]

maybe I missed it...why do you want to acidify your sparge water? How low do you want to go? Water by itself has no buffering capacity, so a small amount of HCL is going to make the pH of your water really low if you aren't careful. I think a buffer would be a better bet if you are trying to keep things in a "normal" range.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

From wikipedia:



Pharmaceutical quality: Clean and colorless air-fuming solution with pungent odor.

Technical/Industry quality: Colorless or slightly yellowish air-fuming solution with pungent odor.

The standards for each HCL grade are listed here.

IMHO, I would NOT use the technical/industry grade unless you are somehow able to purify it (not likely) or obtain a quality report from the manufacturer. But this is guy who isn't about to ingest "ignition residue" or "organic pollution".

And yet, we had lunch at a greasy Irish pub? Yer standards are suspect mister.

I went and checked the pool supply. The product they had was colorless and a 37% dilution. I wrote some bottle info down to look up later. By what you have linked I wonder if they have a pharmeceutical grade product for a techincal grade application. It was pricey compared to others I have googled. $35 a gallon.

I wrote down the case number to look up later.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

maybe I missed it...why do you want to acidify your sparge water? How low do you want to go? Water by itself has no buffering capacity, so a small amount of HCL is going to make the pH of your water really low if you aren't careful. I think a buffer would be a better bet if you are trying to keep things in a "normal" range.

To re-iterate, I want to drop a pH 9.3 sparge tank down to pH 7.

I have used Lactic acid and citric acid to do this and the results are soured. I have no local source of Phosphoric acid but find an abundance of HCl products that appear to meet the quality needs for a food grade application. Neither of my local HBS carry H3PO4 or HCl.

I am tired of paying for overpriced filtered water and hauling every time I want to brew when the mineral content of my tap water is workable for my brewing styles.

 

[lamarguy]

And yet, we had lunch at a greasy Irish pub? Yer standards are suspect mister.

Ha, guilty as charged! But, I didn't actually see them put "ignition residue" or "organic pollution" in my greasy food so I'm OK with it.

Worst case scenario is you grow a 4th leg from drinking your radioactive sparged homebrew. I don't necessarily consider that to be a "bad" thing.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Ha, guilty as charged! But, I didn't actually see them put "ignition residue" or "organic pollution" in my greasy food so I'm OK with it.

Worst case scenario is you grow a 4th leg from drinking your radioactive sparged homebrew. I don't necessarily consider that to be a "bad" thing.

Meh. considering they still haven't determined where the thrid one came from. It's actually kind of handy. Don't need a chair on brewdays and I can stand solid on a 12/12 slope.

Besides, when it comes from an Irish pub it's what you don;t see that you need to worry about. How else do they get that authentic flavor in the food made in teh central plains.

I'll keep digging but, I am still settled on HCl from a pool supply. I just wish they stocked smaller quantities.

 

[broadbill]

To re-iterate, I want to drop a pH 9.3 sparge tank down to pH 7.

I have used Lactic acid and citric acid to do this and the results are soured. I have no local source of Phosphoric acid but find an abundance of HCl products that appear to meet the quality needs for a food grade application. Neither of my local HBS carry H3PO4 or HCl.

I am tired of paying for overpriced filtered water and hauling every time I want to brew when the mineral content of my tap water is workable for my brewing styles.

IIRC, 37% HCL is 12N and that is pretty darn concentrated. Its not going to take much HCL to drop your sparge water 2 pH units. Do you have the means to titrate and measure volumes correctly/accurately?