What percentage of brewers are using their pH meters properly?

[sixhotdogneck]

What percentage of brewers are using their pH meters properly such that they gather accurate data from a well calibrated instrument?

An asinine and rhetorical question but one that needs to be addressed. Foregoing the crowd that "trusts" their water calculator and doesn't measure anymore.

 

[vtipsy]

I properly use my proper pH meter in a proper manner. Anything less would be quite improper.

 

[ajdelange]

I suspect the answer is few. My attention was just called to a Murphy's website which contained remarks that made it clear they do not understand how a pH meter works WRT ATC and I have been asked by the lab director of a rather large US supplier questions which indicated similar lack of understanding. I have, in response to posts of unreasonable pH's, asked if the meter was properly calibrated and gotten responses to the effect that the user calibrated the meter when he got it 6 months ago or that he calibrated it only last week. I always ask whether a meter stability check is done.

All that aside, the proper procedure for calibrating and using a meter and for carrying out the stability check is posted right here in the Stickies. If you aren't doing essentially what it says to do there then you aren't using your meter properly.

Beyond that there is a certain degree of art in pH measurement. Until one acquires that art, which takes some time and experience he won't be getting readings as good as those he will when that art has been acquired.

 

[day_trippr]

I don't know about "asinine", but I doubt one can get a representative response to such a question here.

fwiw, I always calibrate my Hach PP+ and my backup Hanna 98128 the night before brewing, right after measuring out my grains and salts.
It's become part of my routine that I could walk through in my sleep at this point...

Cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

It should be done just before you brew. I have had meters that haven't drifted more than a couple hundredths in 2 weeks and I've had plenty that drift that much in an hour.

 

[beernutz]

What percentage of brewers are using their pH meters properly such that they gather accurate data from a well calibrated instrument?

An asinine and rhetorical question but one that needs to be addressed. Foregoing the crowd that "trusts" their water calculator and doesn't measure anymore.

How does the answer affect you one way or the other?

 

[day_trippr]

It should be done just before you brew. I have had meters that haven't drifted more than a couple hundredths in 2 weeks and I've had plenty that drift that much in an hour.

I assume you tossed the bad meter...

btw, given everything I've been reading here lately - much of it written by you - it'd be foolish to sweat hundreths. And I don't....

Cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

It helps in deciding how seriously to take statements like "SudsoWater always gets me within 0.01 pH - every time". Of course that statement in and of itself is really an answer to OP's question.

 

[Bassman2003]

I do not think most of us would know how accurate these things are in the end. It seems like a black art at times. Either you pay up for the super expensive one from the land of bunny suits or you wander around blindly with one that most can afford and think you are doing right...

I did recently realize the pH4 solution that came with my meter was off. I purchased a kit from Amazon that had pH4, pH7 and storage solution with certs. After using it the first time the meter started reading as I would expect it to. So make sure your calibration solutions are trustworthy as well.

pH is cool to some extent, but it does seem that ballpark closeness is all that is needed.

 

[brewbama]

I take a sample at 20 min into the mash and while it’s cooling calibrate my pH meter. I take the reading of the sample when at the same room temp as the calibration fluid.

 

[jcav]

I do use calibration solutions 7 & 4 every time on brew day before I add the salts to the water. I brew with R/O water and after the salts are added I take a reading and then see if I need to add a little lactic acid or not to bring it down to 5.5 at room temp, before adding any grains. I only mash the base malts and any dark specialty malts or crystal malts I add after the mash rest is over and while I ramp up to mash out temp. I read about this method in Gordon Strong's book and I tried it a year or so ago and I like the results so I do it this way all the time now. The dark specialty malts and crystal malts do not need to be mashed and only steeped to get the flavor and color. This way also doesn't expose those malts to the hot water the whole time you are mashing, so you get less harshness from these malts. Kind of like having brewed coffee sitting on the hot plate for a long time, the coffee tastes bitter or harsher. I like this method and it works for me, but I always use a calibrated meter on brew day that I calibrate right before using it to take a reading.

John

 

[ajdelange]

I do not think most of us would know how accurate these things are in the end.

You do know. Right after calibration they are as accurate as the buffers they were calibrated with. So if the buffers are NIST traceable labeled ±0.02 pH and come from a manufacturer you can trust to deliver what the label says (this lets out Hoy Fong Happy Golden Luck Buffer Company) your meter is accurate to ±0.02 pH - at pH 4 and 7 and right after calibration. Now because of a bit of arcana called DOP half way between 4 and 7 the accuracy is actually somewhat better than ±0.02 assuming the electrode response is linear. Over time, of course, the electrode drifts and it is the purpose of the stability test to see by how much in a given time.

And, as I said in No. 3 there is an art. What needs to be done is laid out in the Sticky but you will need to do all that quite a few times to acquire the art.

 

[Bassman2003]

Your post proves exactly my point These are deep waters and most of us just want to make great beer.

 

[dmtaylor]

What percentage of brewers are using their pH meters properly such that they gather accurate data from a well calibrated instrument?

An asinine and rhetorical question but one that needs to be addressed. Foregoing the crowd that "trusts" their water calculator and doesn't measure anymore.

Most people who will respond to this post are the ones who think they are doing things properly.

I know how to calibrate an instrument. I also know how to not sweat insignificant details.

 

[GoeHaarden]

What's a pH meter?

I just use Bru'n Water and my beer is fantastic...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The flip side: What percentage of homebrewers pH meters are capable of being used properly?

 

[eric19312]

Pretty sure I fall in camp of not using it properly.

I did do the stability check when I first got the meter and seemed ok. I don't calibrate every brew day. Probably calibrate 6 times a year or so. My meter reads hundredths but I am happy if my mash is within one tenth of target pH (I normally target 5.4 and don't worry at all if I am between 5.3 and 5.5, and will just add a little acid if I am over 5.5 and don't remember last time I actually came in below 5.2).
I am using the red Hanna pH meter that was tested by AJ (or Martin can't remember but I think AJ) and was found lacking because it has a timer that can stop the measurement before it reaches stability. I've found that by lifting the probe out of the solution when the clock icon goes off, and then putting it back in the solution, it will restart measuring, more or less from the last value, and ultimately zero in on a value. As my bulb has aged I have found it takes longer to reach this value and I may need to lift and restart the measurement 2-3 times before reaching stable value.
Is this proper? Nope guess not. Is it working for me? I think so. Considering replacing the bulb but not in a hurry.

 

[Mer-man]

It should be done just before you brew. I have had meters that haven't drifted more than a couple hundredths in 2 weeks and I've had plenty that drift that much in an hour.

So my MW-102 drifts. I use fresh 4&7 buffer to calibrate each time and that goes well, but the actual cooled mash sample tends to drift for a while (few minutes).
I have washed the electrode with the proper solution (HCl I think) to rid proteinaceous gunk.

Two questions:
1. When it stops drifting -- is that the value I should record?
2. Do I need to buy a new probe or a whole new meter?

 

[ajdelange]

Plenty of people have checked the MW-102 and it is known to be a stable meter. That is when it is new and if you don't have a defective unit. In the Stickies in this forum there is one on pH meter calibration and use that tells you how to do a stability check. Read that and check your meter. With age its response will slow and it may start to drift. When that happens replace the electrode first as it is the electrode that is subject to drift. Everyone should check his meter from time to time. The check is simple enough. Right after calibration leave the electrode in the 4 buffer for a few hours and write down the pH readings every 20 minutes or so (more frequently at first).

 

[kh54s10]

I wonder what percentage of brewers never take a pH reading??? I would imagine it is quite high.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I wonder what percentage of brewers never take a pH reading??? I would imagine it is quite high.

It would not surprise me if the answer is 95+%.

 

[Stu Alp]

I always calibrate my meter while heating strike water then take a sample of wort 10-15 min after mash in. Cool that and take a reading. I may forego that step one I've dialed in a certain recipe and know what to expect but I'm a long way from that point and will continue with taking pH measurements with a calibrated meter.

 

[Bassman2003]

The more I learn about brewing, biological processes, pH etc..., the more it all seems quite forgiving. I enjoy using my affordable meter and dialing in my process but in all reality, getting close with a software only approach and never using a meter would probably yield the same tasting beer. pH is important to adjust for but ballpark precision is close enough for homebrew imho.

 

[Iseneye]

What percentage? Who knows. My guess would be that 5% of home brewers use a pH meter, 10-20% of that percentage then have a meter capable of recording useful pH numbers, and then who knows what percentage of people with appropriate meters are taking appropriate readings.

I calibrate mine with 4 and 7 buffers on brewday right at the start of the mash so readings are done close to calibration time.

I haven't had much luck with calculators consistently matching my readings so rely on previous batches to figure out how much acid to add. Calculators are a sanity check but not something I rely on.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I don't measure every batch because I use and trust BrewN'Water.
About every 3rd or 4th batch I recalibrate and check just to validate that BNW is still accurate with my water and ingredients and so far it is.
As a result, I am very confident that my pH is right where it needs to be every batch even without measuring.
If you trust your tools (like BNW) and occasionally validate them, you don't have to obsessively measure every time at every stage.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I'm thinking the percentage is less than 1% of brewers have more than a passing interest in pH.

 

[Big Monk]

I'm thinking the percentage is less than 1% of brewers have more than a passing interest in pH.

The niche within the niche.

I compare it to guitarists interested in the types of tubes they use in their amps. Some people have to have old Mullards, Tung Sols, or RCAs while many wouldn't know or care about the difference between a Sovtek and more refined glass.

 

[ajdelange]

I don't measure every batch because I use and trust BrewN'Water.

PM me. I have some real estate investment opportunities I think you will be interested in. Note that I'd write this if you expressed trust in any other spreadsheet/calculator too (including mine).

 

[day_trippr]

heh heh

 

[bracconiere]

...(as i think to myself, hmmm another ph thread? should i? lol)

if you use tap water and barley, ph unadjusted, will still make beer.

as far as using my meter properly POOP NO! i only calibrate it once every 3-4 months, i just use it to get a good ballpark shot, seems to get me 83-85% efficiency most brews, depending how good a job i did malting the barley....the reason i use it is because if i don't adjust the ph i get like 75-80% efficiency...

(damn, remebered to scroll up and check what topic this was. NOT AGAIN!)

just in case: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/cuss-me-out-for-being-a-crappy-homebrewer-lol.654988/

 

[Cavpilot2000]

PM me. I have some real estate investment opportunities I think you will be interested in. Note that I'd write this if you expressed trust in any other spreadsheet/calculator too (including mine).

I would agree with this sentiment IF I had not validated its accuracy with my water, ingredients, and process.
Why on God's green earth would you NOT trust such a spreadsheet when you have validated its predictable accuracy over a period of time?
(Full disclosure: BNW typically predicts about 0.05 pH higher than I actually get, so I factor that in and it has proven to be absolutely predictable).

So by your logic, no matter how often a tool (which BNW is) is validated as accurate, you don't trust it? So you don't trust your pH meter either then, right?

 

[bracconiere]

I would agree with this sentiment IF I had not validated its accuracy with my water, ingredients, and process.
Why on God's green earth would you NOT trust such a spreadsheet when you have validated its predictable accuracy over a period of time?
(Full disclosure: BNW typically predicts about 0.5 pH higher than I actually get, so I factor that in and it has proven to be absolutely predictable).

So by your logic, no matter how often a tool (which BNW is) is validated as accurate, you don't trust it? So you don't trust your pH meter either then, right?

THANKS! i was worried the next post would be cussing ME out...lol

 

[Iseneye]

THANKS! i was worried the next post would be cussing ME out...lol

Huh. First time I've had to look for an ignore button on this forum. Found it.

 

[bracconiere]

Huh. First time I've had to look for an ignore button on this forum. Found it.

damn it, but i'm bored and lonely and brew beer! lol

 

[RevKev]

I can only speak for myself. Seeing people from industry, who either sell or use instruments and only follow SOPs. They can't even explain simple concepts or background. Makes me question every single person ever, life of an analytical chemist.

I am inclined to believe that homebrewers have the same knowledge base of people who use these instruments professionally.

 

[JimRausch]

What percentage of brewers are using their pH meters properly such that they gather accurate data from a well calibrated instrument?

An asinine and rhetorical question but one that needs to be addressed. Foregoing the crowd that "trusts" their water calculator and doesn't measure anymore.

Define 'proper usage'. I follow the directions that came with mine, calibrate it each time before using, take readings at about 10 minutes into the mash, and make sure it's at the proper temperature for the instrument. So far, in maybe 20 mashes since I got it, the reading has always been within 0.1 of what Brunwater has predicted. That makes me feel that I'm using it properly.

 

[ajdelange]

Why on God's green earth would you NOT trust such a spreadsheet when you have validated its predictable accuracy over a period of time?

Given what I know about how what determines mash and what I am able to deduce about how these predictors work, the problems inherent in modeling malts and, especially in the case of Brun water the recent reports of what is clearly a major flaw in its algorithm I would, if I found its answers in close agreement with my readings, question my readings.

(Full disclosure: BNW typically predicts about 0.5 pH higher than I actually get, so I factor that in and it has proven to be absolutely predictable).

So by your logic, no matter how often a tool (which BNW is) is validated as accurate you don't trust it?

Problem is that an instrument that has a bias error of 50 times it's precision is hardly validated as accurate. It is demonstrably inaccurate. Let me mention at this point that a large part of my professional background is in measurement so my perspective is doubtless a bit different than that of many of the readers here (you may be a history of art major for all I know). But if I paid a company good money to deliver an instrument that was supposed to measure quatloos to a precision of 0.01 and it came back with readings off by 0.5 Q (even consistently) I would not say "That's OK" and just add the 0.5 Q to each reading. I would be on the phone with the rep within the hour. If I added more pre-Quatloos and the Quatloo reading went down, I'd call the rep. If he didn't apologize and offer to send me a chip with new firmware on it that fixed both the bias and the other error I'd send the instrument back.

So you don't trust your pH meter either then, right?

Correct. No sensible person would. The responses of pH electrodes are known to vary over both the short and the long term. That is why we calibrate them before each use AND check on that calibration frequently during use AND run a stability test from time to time. When the offset gets to be above 20 mV and the slope less than 90% we don't just subtract 20 mV, multiply by 1.111 and sail on (though we can do this in a pinch). We recognize that our electrode is defective (at the end of its useful life) and replace it.

Do you know what confirmation bias is? I won't get into that here but if the term is unfamiliar to you look it up.

 

[ajdelange]

Define 'proper usage'.

Covered that in No. 3. Here's the link


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ph-meter-calibration.302256/

 

[ajdelange]

I can only speak for myself. Seeing people from industry, who either sell or use instruments and only follow SOPs. They can't even explain simple concepts or background. Makes me question every single person ever, life of an analytical chemist.

I'm the same. My wife has spent lots of time kicking me under the table. In society today if someone says something stupid you are not supposed to question him. But as a scientist in a scientific setting you are.

I am inclined to believe that homebrewers have the same knowledge base of people who use these instruments professionally.

I have been asked incredibly naive questions by "professionals" more than once but I wouldn't give credit to the average home brewer for having their level of knowledge. Many of these guys are unpacking a new Hach or Milwaukee meter and these will be the first pH meters they have ever touched.

 

[ajdelange]

(Full disclosure: BNW typically predicts about 0.5 pH higher than I actually get, so I factor that in and it has proven to be absolutely predictable).

I did have a question I wanted to ask about this earlier but forgot. If indeed BNW is accurate except for the bias of 0.5 pH why doesn't its author simply subtract this bias off?