What is wrong and how do I fix it??

[sparkyaber]

I have had a few (four) brews that have not turned out correctly. None of them concurrent. They were a dortmunder, two newcastle clones (all extract kits), and Edwort's haus ale. All of the beers taste "normal" at bottling time, or so they seemed. They all have the exact same characteristics, except one of the batches was a gusher, the dortmunder.
Ok, the characteristics are:
1. Ring around the bottle, right at the top of the beer. It looks like a bunch of little dots.
2. There is a coating of these "dots" all over the bottle, I need to scrub the bottles with a brush to get them out.
3. They all have the same bitter, antiseptic flavor. The one batch that was the gusher was undrinkable, and I have been able to choke down the latest batches, but they are not quite as bad.
I have never fermented any of these over 70 degrees. I use starsan to sanitize everything with the exception of the bottles, which get the dish washer treatment. I did put a temp probe in the dishwasher and the temp made it over 170 degrees.

I did a bunch of searching, and am thinking it is Bret or lactobasillus, but there was no film on top of the beer when in the fermentor.

Any Ideas?

 

[Yooper]

Sounds like your bottle sanitizing is lacking- maybe that's why you're having an infection in the bottles. I'd try cleaning the bottles well and then using a no-rinse sanitizer on them for the next batch.

 

[ewbish]

Assuming the little white dots aren't dishwasher detergent........which would cause your exact issues.

When I use the DW to sanitize bottles..........I use no detergent. I do add bleach to the dispenser, and that is it.

You sanitizing your bottlecaps?
Sounds like your dishwasher is getting past the magic temp, plus I doubt that's the problem because odds are that at least some of the beer would be ok...... If it's EVERY bottle, my guess is that the infection is occuring elsewhere in the process. How about your bottling equipment? Racking tube, filler, etc? Are they well sterilized? I store all my equipment in the freezer to make sure nothing grows on it, plus I thouroughly sterilize it as well.

May be time for a scorched earth session with clorox..................put every single thing you use for brewing in the bathtub with a few cups of bleach and soak it for a while......probably do it a couple of times.

 

[maztec]

I vote for infected racking tube or fillter.

 

[histo320]

I agree with all on it being a problem with your bottle sanitizing.

I use a powder based sanitizer, fill my sink, fill up the bottle and let it sit on the counter for a few hours, then place the bottle upside down on a paper towel or bottle tree.

 

[bruin_ale]

I agree with Yooper, sounds like it could be the bottles. I never trusted sanitizing in the dishwasher. The few batches that I did botle I think I baked the bottles in the oven after a bleach solution and rinse.

After a few batches of bottling I got so sick of bottling that I purchased a keg system. So the answer to the second part of your question about how to fix it is to start kegging

 

[sparkyaber]

Yoop, I do plan on using star-san on the next batch of bottles. I have a vinator as well as a bottling tree.
It does seem that some bottles are worse than others, but it may be because it was fresher/greener/newer beer. Kinda like what ewbish said. I do not add any dish detergent to cycle when I sanitize the bottles. As for the caps, they spend about 5-10 minutes in star-san. We do take them out and set them on a paper towel?? Maybe the problem? Like I said before, I do run star san through all of my bottling equipment before I bottle, but I was thinking also a good bleach bath could do some good.
One other thing I was thinking is that maybe cross contamination in the dishwasher? Some bottles have it, and then spread it to the rest while in the the dishwasher? Is that possible? I wouldn't think so because of the high temps attained in the dry cycle.
The white stuff in the the inside of the bottle is key I think. It is almost like a film, but not consistent. The dots could be clumps. They are very close together, with the most being at the top where the beer meets the head space.
What type of infection could this be?

 

[sparkyaber]

histo320, my grandparents live just down the road from you in Hendersonville. You folks are pretty blessed to live in such a beautiful area.

 

[sparkyaber]

I bottled a clone of a popular local IIPA and have noticed the "haze" or "cloud" inside the bottles again. Those pesky dots. They don't seemed fused to the bottle as much at this time. The beer has been bottled for seven days now. I tasted one, full carbonation, tastes fine, just green as to be expected. I did have the scum on the bottle that needed the bottle brush to remove it. I had soaked some others that had the same scum in oxyclean for 4 days, and they were clean as new. The same day I bottled the above beer, I bottled "the" apfelwein, and have no dots or scum on any of the bottles. To much alcohol for the nasties to take over?
Anyone know what infection I am fighting?

 

[sparkyaber]

One other thing I have noticed is that the Dots or Film, arranges itself in vertical lines in the bottle around the neck. down the bottle farther they become more erratic, and looking more like a film.

 

[dr_finklestein]

Assuming the little white dots aren't dishwasher detergent........which would cause your exact issues.

When I use the DW to sanitize bottles..........I use no detergent. I do add bleach to the dispenser, and that is it.

You sanitizing your bottlecaps?
Sounds like your dishwasher is getting past the magic temp, plus I doubt that's the problem because odds are that at least some of the beer would be ok...... If it's EVERY bottle, my guess is that the infection is occuring elsewhere in the process. How about your bottling equipment? Racking tube, filler, etc? Are they well sterilized? I store all my equipment in the freezer to make sure nothing grows on it, plus I thouroughly sterilize it as well.

May be time for a scorched earth session with clorox..................put every single thing you use for brewing in the bathtub with a few cups of bleach and soak it for a while......probably do it a couple of times.

I have never had sanitizing issues. I sanitize most of my equipment with Starsan. When I sanitize my bottles (brew and starter glasses) I incorporate them in with the rest of the dishes. I have never had any issues. I also use Cascade dishwashing liquid (not the powder). Maybe I'm lucky?

 

[sparkyaber]

I have notice the same residue on my latest batch that has finished bottle conditioning. I drank the beer, which tasted fine, and then rinsed the bottle and brushing the scum layer off. I tasted what was left, and it tasted salty. Do infections taste salty? or could the hot SOFT water give it that taste. I am still perplexed.
I did bottle SWMBO slayer this weekend, this time we used starsan. I guess it is now just a wait and see.

 

[SmugMug]

Not to derail the OP, but I recently got some new bottles in and instead of the usual routine of clean-bleach-rinse-dry-bottle I went with giving the bottles some soak time in the sink with oxyclean, rinsing them really well and then into the dishwasher (no detergent) on sanitize. Put them in the bottle box after they were dry and put a layer of cling wrap over the necks. Anyone else use this procedure? If it works out well, I've just cut 30-40 min off my bottling day.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

+1 on bottle sanitization but, it also sounds like you have a tinge of chlorephenols there too. Meaning you need to filter your water for chlorine or use campden for chloramines.

 

[sparkyaber]

Gila, that was my thought, well something with the water anyways. I have been adjusting the water with RO water and also adding gypsum and calcium chloride (I have very hard water). It still does not explain how some beers turn out fine while others have this problem. I will go back into my notes and look at the water some more and see if there is some connection between these batches.

 

[blackwaterbrewer]

if you have a friend who brews, have them brew with your water and their equipment and see what happens. then, have them brew with their water and your equipment.

how old are the bottles? maybe buy some new bottles and do half old bottles and half new bottles.

that is the trial-and-error method. i hope you figure it out. sounds frustrating!

 

[sparkyaber]

All of my friends that brew brew at my place with my stuff. My bottles are all mixed up, some are many years old, (returnables) and some are brand new. I have been thinking about the water, and it doesn't add up. Most batches are good some bad. Some have been majority RO water that have turned out bad. Edwort's house ale as a matter of fact. I wonder if all of my beers have this problem, but my IPA's have enough hops to cover the bad flavor?

 

[sparkyaber]

ok, bring this thread around for a second go round, this time with pictures. I had a few good batches, then two more in a row bad. It is driving me crazy, and costing me a fortune. I am really trying to nail down a flavor, clove like? estery? that is what I am thinking. I was really thinking about the salt additions, but some beers have turned out wonderful, and others that have less salts, turn out bad.
About the bottles, I started using the vineator, with star-san. Here is a pic from a bottle of common room esb. This bottle has been rinsed, but not scrubbed. The film is the only that is consistant with all of the bad batches, as well as the off flavor.

 

[elmetal]

did you leave them in the sunlight after bottling? I never use clear bottles because UV = hell to beers

 

[DRoyLenz]

did you leave them in the sunlight after bottling? I never use clear bottles because UV = hell to beers

This is a good question. Is there any relation to the color of bottle you use and the quality of the brew? Are the good brews in brown bottles? Do all of your bottles age in the same place? Maybe one room has fluorescent lighting or direct sunlight whereas another room has incandescent (which would skunk beer noticeably slower).

 

[sparkyaber]

No light gets to these bottles, they are buried in returnable cases, in my utility room with no windows and the door shut. Also, I don't use many clear bottles, I use a few with each batch. For this particularly. The brown bottles do the same thing, but it is very hard to see the film, having to hold them up to the light to see it. With the clear bottles it is easier to take a picture of the film.

One other flavor that is distinct is the banana flavor that the belgian style beers have.

 

[elmetal]

what yeast did you use with all these batches? and how did you bottle? My guess is bottling bucket, tubing, or bottling wand.

 

[Yooper]

Clove flavors tend to come from chlorine- either in the water or in cleaning. Chloramines would be my first guess. As to why it's worse sometimes, does your water company use more chloramine seasonally?

I'd try an entire batch with spring water. No adjustments- just spring water. Use distilled water to sanitize bottles, no regular water at all. If that fixes your problem, then you know it's your water.

I don't know of any infection that leaves a film like that, but it's certainly possible. If the water is ok, then that would be the next step- to look at a possible infection.

Esters usually come from stressed yeast, which might be a different issue. High fermentation temperatures, underpitching, etc, might be something else going on at the same time.

 

[elmetal]

maybe underpitching. but he did mention he fermented under 70 the whole time.

my next question is: is 70 he fermometer temperature or ambient?

 

[DRoyLenz]

I'd try an entire batch with spring water. No adjustments- just spring water. Use distilled water to sanitize bottles, no regular water at all. If that fixes your problem, then you know it's your water.

This is a good idea, however, I think part of the problem is that the issue is not consistent with all of the batches, so just because the problem goes away after one batch, doesn't mean the issue has been solved.

That being said, I don't have any helpful advice that hasn't already been said, I suppose I'm just playing Devil's Advocate right now....

 

[sparkyaber]

Thanks for the ideas, I tried using camden tablets, would this help? I have done a few batches that use all distilled water, but I still used tap water for priming and also for my starsan solution. Next 5 gallon batch I will use all distilled water, through out.
Temp that I took was the water bath (swamp cooler). The water in the swamp cooler never got over 68 degrees. I have made starters with all of these batches, good and bad.

I really am convinced that the problem lies with the bottling. It seems that the beer tastes fine at bottling time, just green as would be expected. I really have no idea what would be doing it. I bleach/oxi-clean after every batch, and before I bottle the next batch, I soak everything in star-san. I bought a new bottling valve and hoses, so they will be new on the next batch.

As for the yeast, they have been different for every batch, from danstar to wyeast to white labs.

Thanks again for all of the ideas and the help.

 

[sparkyaber]

Update- I switched bottling spigot, an one oktoberfest later it tastes fine.

On one other note, I was at my brother inlaws place and he had a couple of really old beers, like a six and a half month old Edwort's haus ale, and a six month old surly furious clone. Both of these beers had the same issues as above, film, taste, and all.
After the long sit, there was very little film left on the bottles and they did not taste nearly as bad, they tasted the way they were suppose to. Does this help identify what my problem may be?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Update- I switched bottling spigot, an one oktoberfest later it tastes fine.

I was gonna mention the bottling bucket and spigot. You said your brewing friends brew at your place and use your equipment...do they also bottle at your place?

It seems the bottles are reasonably easy to clean/sanitize (so I'd doubt it was the bottles) but a bottling bucket/spigot less so.

 

[rj0715]

do you have a water softener? you mentioned having hard water. if so then running those bottles thru dishwasher is rinsing them in some pretty salty water.... just a thought...

 

[sparkyaber]

Thanks guys, Spanish, my friends only brew when I am brewing. I guess you could say the assist me. My brother in law is the only one that could brew on his own, but he has not. All of the beer gets bottled at my house.

rj, I do have a water softener, but I stopped using the dishwasher to sanitize months ago thinking this was part of the problem. I have had bad batches since then.

I did notice a slight malty smell in the spigot for bottling......