What am I doing wrong?

[Green and Dumb]

Ok, my brewing buddy and I have made 9 batches now. These batches were a combination of pre-packaged kits and individual ingredients (All extract w/specialty grains). The batches thus far:

Listerman's Kits: ESB, Gomez American Lager, Winter Warmer, & Altbier
Brewer's Best Kits: Irish Stout
My own recipe: Brown Ale, Pub Ale (x2), Orange-Cranberry Ale

Out of all of these, the only ones that were really good were the BB Irish Stout, my Brown ale and pub ales (although they were a little too bitter), and the Listerman's Gomez kit (Sam Adams clone that uses ale yeast instead of lagering).
All of the rest of the batches have been basically undrinkable due to a very strong extract/cidery taste.

The thing that all of the bad batches had in common are 1) they used Listerman's Bulk Extract. (All other batches used a combination of Muntons LME/DME, with the exception of the Listerman's Gomez kit.), & 2) they were put in a 6.5 gal glass carboy for secondary (The rest of the batches either had no secondary or a 5 gal carboy)

I am obsessive about cleaning/sanitization and follow recipes to the letter so I don't think the taste is coming from infection or poor brewing procedures. Could this off taste b e coming from the extract itself? Is the extra headspace in my secondary causing problems? Any other ideas?

 

[Green and Dumb]

Forgot to mention that I racked my caramel cream ale to secondary last week and, while it did not have the cidery taste yet, it did have a VERY strong alcohol taste to it. Not sure if that is a result of the 2oz vanilla extract in primary or what. I think I may have racked too soon, as it started bubbling in the secondary almost immediately and went for another day or so. I hope that mellowed it out some. I did use Listerman's bulk extract on that as well, and I used White Labs East Coast Ale yeast on it.

I got the extract for this the same day as that for my Orange-Cranberry and, actually, used the same mix of 3lbs light and 3lbs wheat LME for both (added 1lb of honey to the OC also). The OC has somewhat of a swee/cidery taste to it, but I think that may be more of the added honey/fruit (2lbs fresh cranberries in boil) and low hops (1oz Hallertau 60min, 1 oz Tettnang 15min) ~16IBUs).

If the CCA turns out ok, would that rule out the extract as the culprit?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Cidery off-taste often comes from using too much sugar to boost the abv of a recipe. Were your kits all extract, or did they also use sugar during the boil?

You may also be on the right track with your extract. I'm not familiar with it, but depending on the composition it could potentially lead to cidery off-tastes, but I'm not that confident about it. Still, it's a very easy variable to change while maintaining everything else.

Finally, elevated fermentation temperatures could lead to this problem. What is the temperature of your primary fermentation?

 

[Green and Dumb]

The only recipe that used corn sugar to boost abv was the Winter Warmer. All of the others were just extract and specialty grains. My main fermentation never gets above ~72 deg F. Now that it's cooler out, it's ranging from 66-69 deg F.

WRT to the extract, it does seem that all of the batches I have brewed with Munton's LME/DME have been considerably better than the batches brewed with the Bulk Extract from Listermann's. They tell me that their extract is very fresh, and I always use it immediately after purchasing it, but I have had horrible results with it thus far. I'll wait and see how the CCA turns out but I'm thinking that maybe I should bottle it soon, in case the 1.5 gal of headspace in secondary is my problem.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

The headspace in your secondary definitely isn't the problem if you're following good racking procedures. Your beer will release some CO2 through the racking process and usually will ferment just a little bit more due to the rousing of the yeast which will form a protective CO2 blanket over your beer.

 

[Green and Dumb]

Here's something else interesting. Both the Winter Warmer and the Orange-Cranberry ale are well carbonated but have absolutely no head. The Winter Warmer was bottled and primed and it pours nicely with a good head at first, but it dissipates very quickly and leaves absoultely no head on top of the beer. The OC, which was kegged and force-carbonated pours with no head, even if poured directly into the middle of the glass. What could cause this ande could it be the same thjing that causes the horrible taste?

 

[homebrewer_99]

To me it sounds like:

Cidery: Too high fermentation temps. Move to a cooler area. Possibly the porch now that it's getting colder. For ales you are probably OK. Place them on the floor instead of up on a shelf. Heat rises, cold stays on the floor level. Lagers are OK to start fermentation at ale temps, but then you have to move them to a cooler are...the porch, garage, etc.

No head: Soapy glasses...have they been washed in a dish washer? That's a no-no. Rinse with hot water then cold. Do not dry, just pour the beer into them.

Steer away from liquid malt. The DME is much better.

Good luck.

 

[Green and Dumb]

Thanks for the input. Here's some info in response: Fermentation is done in my basement either on the floor or on a shelf that is 3' high. Fermentation temps have never been above 72 deg F on any of my brews. I check daily (multiple times) and the thermometers are always in the proper range for the yeast strains i'm using.

My glasses are not soapy. Ususally wash them in the dishwasher and run the heated dry cycle. I can poor a commercial brew into a glass, get a nice head and then pour one of these homebrews into the same glass and get no head.

I guess I'm just having no luck on some of these beers. Seems strange that canned extract would give me good brews and the bulk stuff that is supposedly fresher would continually produce horrible brews. Guess I'll have to go all grain or switch to canned LME or DME exclusively.

 

[homebrewer_99]

They were just possible suggestions, but it seems like you have the answer to all those...so just what is your problem?

Hard to say based upon the info given. How about these Qs?

How much priming sugar did you use?

How long have your bottles been conditioning?

At what temps?

 

[Evan!]

WRT problems with beer head: most HBS's carry what is called "heading powder", which you mix in at bottling in addition to your priming sugars. I've used it before, and it does help to promote head retention. Also, spices and adjuncts can affect head retention.

WRT Listermanns LME, I don't think it's to blame, unless you got different batches than what I get. I've used alot of it, and I notice none of the problems you mention.

You don't have to go all-grain, but you might try going partial-mash. When I switched to PM, that cidery thing went away completely! I think that getting all your fermentables from LME will consistently produce that cidery thing you talk about.

Also, do your best to ferment your ales at the lower end of the yeast's temp range.

 

[Green and Dumb]

Sorry if my response seemed rude hombrewer+99...it was not intended that way at all. I was just trying to give info to answer your questions so that I can get this thing figured out. There's nothing worse than putting a ton of effort intoa batch of beer and having it turn out so bad that you can't even force yourself to finish one bottle...

To answer the other Q's: 1) I use the amount of priming sugar provided with the kits. In the case of the Winter Warmer, this was 5oz. I always boil water and dissolve the sugar in there and then cool and add to the bottling bucket with the wort. 2) the bottles have been conditioning for 3 weeks now at temps from 66-69 deg F.

I can say that NONE of the batches I have bottled have turned out well. On the flipside, all of the batches, except for the OC, that I have kegged have been good. Coincidence?

 

[homebrewer_99]

Sorry if my response seemed rude hombrewer+99...it was not intended that way at all. I was just trying to give info to answer your questions so that I can get this thing figured out. There's nothing worse than putting a ton of effort intoa batch of beer and having it turn out so bad that you can't even force yourself to finish one bottle...

To answer the other Q's: 1) I use the amount of priming sugar provided with the kits. In the case of the Winter Warmer, this was 5oz. I always boil water and dissolve the sugar in there and then cool and add to the bottling bucket with the wort. 2) the bottles have been conditioning for 3 weeks now at temps from 66-69 deg F.

I can say that NONE of the batches I have bottled have turned out well. On the flipside, all of the batches, except for the OC, that I have kegged have been good. Coincidence?

Sorry, but I wasn't thinking you were being rude, then again (re-reading my post), maybe I sounded rude, but that was not my intent...I wrote it as if I were thinking "WTF can be wrong???"...

As far as your conditioning/carbonation/head problem...your temps are a bit too low. Place them in a room where the temps are a little higher...about 72F or so. How about closer to your awter heater or something like that?

Did you stir the priming sugar in? Sometimes all the bottles won't carbonate the same if you don't stir it in.