Westvleteren 12 Group Brew & Swap

[saq]

Your LHBS didn't have di-ammonia-phosphate?

 

[Freezeblade]

You can confirm me for this one as well. I'm not gonna be able to brew until the end of this month though, all my fermenters will be tied up until then.

On a side note......anyone in the San Diego are know of a place that sells the DAP yeast nutrient? I couldn't find any at Ralph's or Von's.

Funny, I was just at Home Brew Mark looking for DAP yesterday, usually they have it in stock, but they are currently all out I've got some sugar that I am carmalizing up as we speak. I used a squeeze of lime juice to provide the acid to invert, then I'm following the long proceedure of getting it to carmalize without DAP. Bring to 290, add water (it drops to 220ish here) let it get back up to 290, add water, etc. untill the color I want is gotten. I'm probably going to have to do a last-minute order of some dark candi syrup from AHS or something, due to lack of DAP.

 

[saq]

I made my starter last night for the New World recipe. I'm brewing it just like I have it in the first post on Sunday. Then sometime a week and a half or so after I'll do the traditional.

 

[KingBrianI]

I'm cooking up my candi syrup right now. It's actually kind of fun. Anyway, I'll be brewing next week and had a couple questions. First, what does brew like a monk have to say about whirlfloc or irish moss or stuff like that. I always use whirlfloc but for this beer I'm considering not. Firstly, it will be so dark I doubt it would make a difference in clarity, secondly, there will be yeast in the bottle anyway to cloud it, and lastly, I always feel like it reduces head retention when I use it. Anyway, thats question one.

My second question has to do with pitching rates. The Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator says I need about a 2 liter starter with 2 smack packs. I only have one smack pack and was just going to step it up once. How do I calculate the volume of the first and second steps? I'd like to slightly underpitch, in order to bring out more of the yeast characteristics, but not underpitch by so much that attenuation suffers. Thanks!

 

[remilard]

My second question has to do with pitching rates. The Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator says I need about a 2 liter starter with 2 smack packs. I only have one smack pack and was just going to step it up once. How do I calculate the volume of the first and second steps? I'd like to slightly underpitch, in order to bring out more of the yeast characteristics, but not underpitch by so much that attenuation suffers. Thanks!

Couple of options here.

1. Use the Mr. Malty calculator to figure out the size of starter you need to produce the equivalent of 2 smack packs. That is your first step, then your second step is the 2 liter starter.

2. Use the Mr. Malty calculator to figure out any arbitrary two steps you want, although #1 is the most convenient.

3. Wyeast has a starter calculator for homebrewers that lets you enter information for two steps all at once. Not as many options as the Mr. Malty calculator though (plenty of options for your situation).

I usually go with #1 in a similar situation.

 

[Bokonon]

I think I've figured out what I'm going to do, but still haven't worked out the exact numbers.

I'm using 11.5 gal batch in beersmith for my calculating now, but that might get adjusted when I look over my old big brew notes.

I'm going to end up steeping some of the "new world" specialty grains in a different pot and then add that "tea" to one fermenter that will be the "new world" fermenter. The other will just get the normal wort.

I'm going to do my sugar additions a few days into the ferment and I'm planning on 2lbs of homemade dark and 1lbs of table sugar in each fermenter. Actually I might add the table sugar right into the boil kettle to let it carmelize a bit.

Depending on how they turn out I might end up blending a .5-1 gal of each batch into a different set of bottles.

I'll be brewing tomorrow unless something comes up

 

[jkarp]

I just happen to be brewing up a 3 gal batch of my westy 12 recipe tomorrow (sorry, not part of the swap), and I always brew it with a 3L starter of a westy harvest. To get the 85+% attenuation Westvleteren sees in the 12, you want to pitch a LOT of yeast and allow it to heat up.

 

[saq]

I'm cooking up my candi syrup right now. It's actually kind of fun. Anyway, I'll be brewing next week and had a couple questions. First, what does brew like a monk have to say about whirlfloc or irish moss or stuff like that. I always use whirlfloc but for this beer I'm considering not. Firstly, it will be so dark I doubt it would make a difference in clarity, secondly, there will be yeast in the bottle anyway to cloud it, and lastly, I always feel like it reduces head retention when I use it. Anyway, thats question one.

My second question has to do with pitching rates. The Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator says I need about a 2 liter starter with 2 smack packs. I only have one smack pack and was just going to step it up once. How do I calculate the volume of the first and second steps? I'd like to slightly underpitch, in order to bring out more of the yeast characteristics, but not underpitch by so much that attenuation suffers. Thanks!

The monks don't use any whirflock, the 10 week "lagering" phase @ 50f clears out the beer. They say they lose an average of 8% of the beer due to this fining process. I'm not putting any whirflock in.

For MrMalty, first off make sure your beer stats are in (OG @ volume) and then set the slider is all the way over to the right, that assumes one smack pack/vial.
Also be sure to check how you are making your starter (simple starter, w/o2, continuous aeration, shaken, stir plate).
Your starter is going to want about 48 hours before its totally done. Without a stir plate you are going to need a BIG starter, like 6 liters if just shaking. A stir plate goes a long way towards making good beer!

 

[saq]

Read another important tidbit in BLAM last night, Westvleteren does not let the ferment temp rise above 84. So 82-84 is our target temp. He also states that if you try and cool the ferment temp too much the yeast can crash and slow way down and stop fermenting.
I guess its better to let ferment temp rise slow and err on the side of caution. I'll start with a 70f ambient temp in my fridge and see what kind of delta there will be, and then rise up some and get it locked in at 82f.

 

[KingBrianI]

The monks don't use any whirflock, the 10 week "lagering" phase @ 50f clears out the beer. They say they lose an average of 8% of the beer due to this fining process. I'm not putting any whirflock in.

For MrMalty, first off make sure your beer stats are in (OG @ volume) and then set the slider is all the way over to the right, that assumes one smack pack/vial.
Also be sure to check how you are making your starter (simple starter, w/o2, continuous aeration, shaken, stir plate).
Your starter is going to want about 48 hours before its totally done. Without a stir plate you are going to need a BIG starter, like 6 liters if just shaking. A stir plate goes a long way towards making good beer!

Don't get me wrong, I've made plenty of starters, and use the Mr. Malty calculator for every one. I was just inquiring about how best to calculate the step-up. With the slider all the way to the right, it was still calling for 2 packs. I ended up doing a one liter starter in order to get the cell count up to 200 mil, then I'll decant and add 2 liters more wort to get the cell count up to the 300-something mil it recommended. The one liter starter has been spinning away on the stir plate since yesterday.

EDIT: Billions, not millions I mean.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Plan sounds good, I'm thinking 1.5-2L for 2.5-3 gal target volume on the stir plate.

I'm planning to go with no sparge, 10 lb of grain @2qt/lb, boil down to whatever volume to hit the OG. Then add the sugar boiled and diluted to the the OG along with Fermaid-K when I boost the temp from 70*F to 80*F+, probably 2 days in. :rockin:

 

[Bokonon]

I brewed up my batch today. Split into 2 fermenters. For one of them I steeped .25lbs each of special b, aromatic, biscuit, caramunich in 1 quart of my first runnings (to hopefully get some enzymes in there) and 1 quart of water, this was boiled and then added to the fermenter which was topped off with the normal wort.

They are sitting in my chest freezer now waiting for it to come down another degree or two before I pitch my yeast.

Of course I forgot to take pictures of the wort at different points in the boil. I ended up doing a 150 minute boil

I'm going to let the yeast get rockin at 67 then in 36-48 hours I'll add my sugars and set my temp controller to only cool to 82. I don't think the temp will climb all the way up by itself so I might ramp the temp up 2-3 degrees a day

 

[saq]

Just finished brewing with one of my good buddies who I'm going to do the tasting party with. Brew day of the Westy 12 "new world" went pretty well. 90 min mash, 90 min boil, came in a little under volume but probably right on gravity. Added the sugar in the last 10 minutes of the boil. The beer actually was pretty dark, darker than the anticipated 26 SRM.
Vorlaufing went really fast, I had some seriously CLEAR beer in a very short order coming out of the valve into the pitcher for vorlaufing. We actually hit a 6.25 hour brew day which is pretty damn fast for my one 10g MLT/BK combo ass.
I made up a 4.7L starter and decanted to a seriously thick slurry (400ml?), and then poured out two vials of slurry into white labs vials. Should be right around 3 effective liters give or take.

Here is my final brew notes.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.54 gal
Estimated OG: 1.090 SG
Estimated Color: 26.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 74.71 %
1.00 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 5.53 %
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.77 %
0.33 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 1.83 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.38 %
0.19 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.05 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 24.7 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.40 %] (30 min)Hops 5.0 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (30 min) Hops 8.5 IBU
1.00 item Servomyces (10 min)
1.50 lb Dark Belgian Candi Syrup (80.0 SRM) Sugar 8.30 %
0.75 lb Amber Belgian Candi Syrup (40.0 SRM) Sugar 4.43 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 15.77 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 24.00 qt of water at 159.3 F 150.0 F

Water Profile in PPM
CA: 86.8
MA 7.8
NA 18.4
HCO3: 116.94
SO4: 60.3
C: 38.2


I'll do the traditional recipe in about 2 weeks.

 

[saq]

Don't get me wrong, I've made plenty of starters, and use the Mr. Malty calculator for every one. I was just inquiring about how best to calculate the step-up. With the slider all the way to the right, it was still calling for 2 packs.

EDIT: Billions, not millions I mean.

Well, you were doing an 11.5g batch and I was doing a 5.5g batch If you change the volume the vial count does decrease from 2 to 1. Can't wait to try this beer, its going to be a long 13 weeks.

 

[KingBrianI]

Well, you were doing an 11.5g batch and I was doing a 5.5g batch If you change the volume the vial count does decrease from 2 to 1. Can't wait to try this beer, its going to be a long 13 weeks.

My batch is 5.5 gal too. If you fill out the Mr. Malty Yeast calculator with 1.090 OG, 5.5 gal. batch, and yeast manufacture date of April 7, 2009 with the slider all the way to the right and use a stir plate, it says to use 2 vials of yeast in a little over 2 liters. I just hope that the recommended rate isn't going to be too much, so that the yeast doesn't produce all the neat flavors and aromas it should. At least it should attenuate completely. I'm planning on mashing at 148 for 90 minutes. Hope I don't go down past 1.011!

 

[saq]

My batch is 5.5 gal too. If you fill out the Mr. Malty Yeast calculator with 1.090 OG, 5.5 gal. batch, and yeast manufacture date of April 7, 2009 with the slider all the way to the right and use a stir plate, it says to use 2 vials of yeast in a little over 2 liters. I just hope that the recommended rate isn't going to be too much, so that the yeast doesn't produce all the neat flavors and aromas it should. At least it should attenuate completely. I'm planning on mashing at 148 for 90 minutes. Hope I don't go down past 1.011!

Ah, true. Didn't notice that age made such a difference before. Mine was quite a bit fresher than that.
I know that in professional pitching amounts (1500ml of pure slurry for 7barrel) the first generation doesn't do as well as later generations. I would think a stir plate would have a very similar effect...

 

[saq]

Well, 6 hours later I've got a lot of airlock activity and krauzen, its alive!. Added some more fermcap-s. It might not be enough, this yeast is hungry!

 

[saq]

Yesterday I got my temp dialed in at about 81.5f, I upped the thermometer a little bit more this morning so it should end up at 82f by the end of the day. The airlock is going crazy and I plan on checking my gravity level tonight to see how far I am so I can get a decent idea of when to start cooling.

 

[saq]

So I decided to take a gravity reading and see where I'm at. Seemed a little early but since we need to start cooling before we reach terminal gravity. Turns out it was a good idea for me to check because my SG was 1.019 which is about 78% apparent attenuation! Cranked the temp down to 63f so I should hit 65f beer temp sometime tomorrow for its last 4 days of fermentation.

 

[KingBrianI]

So I decided to take a gravity reading and see where I'm at. Seemed a little early but since we need to start cooling before we reach terminal gravity. Turns out it was a good idea for me to check because my SG was 1.019 which is about 78% apparent attenuation! Cranked the temp down to 63f so I should hit 65f beer temp sometime tomorrow for its last 4 days of fermentation.

Hope that doesn't shock the yeast and get them to quit fermenting!

 

[saq]

Hope that doesn't shock the yeast and get them to quit fermenting!

Hopefully not, I'm doing it slowly. Its down to about 74f from 81f right now, and it had 12 hours to do so. I cranked the temp down some more and it should continue to drop slowly till it gets to 68f.

Since my cooling is provided only by the ambient air in the chest freezer that should be a pretty gradual process. Airlock activity is about as slow as it was before I started turning the temp down.

 

[chri5]

I think I am going to brew the "new world" version of this on 6/20, and I think it would be fun to swap. I had a Westmalle 8 this weekend, and was planning on making something similar...but this sounds even better.

The mos tinteresting part is going to be making the candi sugar. Hopefully I don't make too much of a mess lol.

 

[saq]

Did another gravity check on this beer, down to 1.015, almost there! 82% attenuated.

 

[remilard]

I'm going to let the yeast get rockin at 67 then in 36-48 hours I'll add my sugars and set my temp controller to only cool to 82. I don't think the temp will climb all the way up by itself so I might ramp the temp up 2-3 degrees a day

It will get there by itself, a lot faster than 3 degrees a day too.

 

[saq]

It will get there by itself, a lot faster than 3 degrees a day too.

Yeah, I had a lot of krausen within 5 hours, so I think I had fermentation activity around 3. In the morning (about 12 hours since pitching) it had ramped up to my first cooling point at 78f when I had my fridge set to 70f. I raised my fridge temp to 74 that morning and it had hit 81.5f by the time I was back from lunch.

 

[KingBrianI]

Well I'm all set to brew tomorrow. I'm excited! As an interesting aside, I always have problems with a very slow sparge on decocted mashes so tonight I decided for the first time to condition my malt before milling. The difference is incredible! The milled grain is a completely different texture, very fluffy! It's because nearly all of the hulls are completely intact, in spite of all the germ being completely crushed. I'm going to have to start doing this for every batch. For the 5 minutes it takes, it looks like it will definitely be worth it.

 

[saq]

Condition the malt? Ive not heard of that, please tell!
I did a gravity test last night, down to 1.014, should be right on target for me transferring to a corny tomorrow.
Batch #2 got postponed to a week from tomorrow for me due to me forgetting to order some D1 sugar, oops. So I'm brewing a trappist blonde instead.

 

[KingBrianI]

Conditioning the malt is basically just adding 2% by weight of water to the grain before grinding. It makes the hulls more pliable so instead of ripping and tearing, they remain whole. You can find a better description on the wiki here: Malt Conditioning - Home Brewing Wiki.

I'm just starting the boil on my brew right now. Decoction days are so freaking long!! It better be worth it!

 

[KingBrianI]

Man, it's taking forever! The two hour boil is killer! I'm taking pictures throughout the day including before and after the boil color pics to see what kind of color the 2 hr boil adds. Preboil gravity was higher than expected meaning I got way better than my calculated 85% efficiency. Color was pretty light for the pre-boil sample so I'm not sure how much color the decoction added. Probably somewhere between 2-4 SRM. If the boil adds another 3-5 SRM I should end up right around the right color, after the candi sugar gets added.

 

[KingBrianI]

Had a looong brewday! Here's how it went:

Mash in

A Great Blue Heron showed up to supervise

Decocting

Heron tanning

My Meyer Lemon (has nothing to do with the brewday other than it was right there

Wrapped up for protein rest

On they way to the saccrification rest

Muskrat showed up for the brew too!

Boiling Decoction

Pre-boil color