Westvleteren 12 Group Brew & Swap

[Saccharomyces]

Is Brother Joris using the term "lagering" correctly? Can the Westmalle yeast actually survive and function at 50f? I'm guessing he just meant crash cooling because they talk about clarifying with it.

I always pitch around 68*F, once it gets going I'll take it out to the garage where it's 80-90*F and let it ride there. Once it slows I'd bring it back inside where it's about 70*F and let it sit, then rack to a keg for secondary of 5 weeks. Dump in the kegerator to crash cool, once it drops clear I can push with CO2 to another keg where I mix in the bottling yeast and priming sugar and then bottle from that.

1M cells/mL/*P is a ***load of yeast... Unlike somebody I don't have a 5L flask for my stirplate...

 

[KingBrianI]

Alright, so I'm planning on going very simple in my recipe. Here's what I have so far:

OG (after sugar additions) 1.095
IBU 30
SRM (not counting kettle caramelization) 16.2

based on 80% eff (I usually get 85-90% but with the bigger grain bill I'll be conservative, although if I sparge enough to have a volume needed for the 2 hr boil, I'll probably still be at 85-90%)

8 lbs. dingeman's pils
8 lbs. dingeman's pale

1.5 lbs. homemade dark candi syrup (using the recipe for "sugar #5 from https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/)
0.25 lbs amber candi sugar (using one of the amber recipes from that page but not adding the water after it gets to temp and just pouring onto a cold sheet pan for it to harden)

Using the hop schedule from the recipe linked to in the first post, but with enough perle at 60 to bring the IBUs to 30.

I was thinking about doing a decoction mash to include an acid, protein and sacc rest with mashout for some extra flavor. Sugars will be added 3 days into the primary. Using the wyeast trappist high gravity yeast.

So how does it look? I'm mainly concerned about the IBUs, color, and alcohol % since I've never had the real thing and will be just going off what's been posted in this thread.

 

[saq]

The SRM of the 12 is 40, the IBU is 38, the OG is 1.090 including sugar additions.
Yeast is Westmalle yeast, fermentation temp is at least 80f, closer to 82-84f.
Hops are Northern Brewer for bittering, Styrian Goldings and Hallertau Hersbrucker for flavor (from BLAM).

Assuming a 5.5g batch @ 1.090 boiled for 120 minutes that would be 0.5oz Northern Brewer @ 120, 1oz Styrian Goldings @ 40 and 1oz Hallertau Hersrucker @ 40.

My Westvleteren 12 Traditionale recipe is looking like this so far.
75% eff boiled 120 minute
7.25lbs belgian pils
7.25lbs belgian pale 2 row
2 bottles (3lbs) of Dark2 Candi Syrup
0.5oz Northern Brewer @ 120, 1oz Styrian Goldings @ 40 and 1oz Hallertau Hersrucker @ 40
2L starter of WLP530 (MrMalty says a stir plated slurry needs about 2.5-3L)
Mild aeration

That gets me to about 37.8 IBU but only 22 SRM. With a vigorous 2 hour boil it will probably catch up some. Anyone know if there is any math for calculating or at least estimating an SRM increase from a vigorous long boil?

 

[KingBrianI]

40 SRM, holy damn! I'm gonna have to add some dark candi sugar I guess. I'll sub some northern brewer for the bittering hops and take it to 38. And I'll adjust the OG to 1.090.

 

[PSmurf78]

that's crazy, I tried making a clone of this a few weeks back. It's currently about 3-4 weeks in in the secondary. I had an OG around 1.1 though, not 1.09, and after 3 weeks in the primary, I was down to 1.020.

Maybe I'll have to set a couple bottles aside, just to send out.

 

[saq]

that's crazy, I tried making a clone of this a few weeks back. It's currently about 3-4 weeks in in the secondary. I had an OG around 1.1 though, not 1.09, and after 3 weeks in the primary, I was down to 1.020.

Maybe I'll have to set a couple bottles aside, just to send out.

What recipe did you use? What did you mash at? What yeast did you use? How much did you pitch? What was your fermentation temperature?

 

[PSmurf78]

I did just a PM batch,
7 lbs belgium pils
6 lbs x-light DME
2 lbs dark candi sugar
1 lb belgium Caramunich
8 oz biscuit
5 oz aromatic
4 oz special b
3 oz chocolate

Mash temps @ 154 for 75 mins, trying for 1.75qt/lb. Ended up with 5.5G going into the bucket

I used the wyeast Trappist strain (3787), multi step starter that I decanted twice, ending up with a heavy slurry that was close to a 1/4 gallon. Had really good activity within a few hours, popped the top (with a blow off tube installed) about 9 hrs later.

1st 1 lb sugar addition went in at about the 36 hr mark, and the 2nd 1 lb addition followed about 24 hours after that.

 

[saq]

What temperature did you ferment at? That is pretty key to the high (88% AA) attenuation rates Westvleteren gets.

 

[PSmurf78]

I started at 66 for about 4 days, then ramped up (used a 12"x28" heating pad) to about 82 degrees over the next 7 days. I would give the bucket a slight swirl about once a day. Once it sat at 82 for about 2 days, I then let it fall back down and let everything settle for another week or so. After that it went into a clearing vessel.

 

[Bokonon]

I think I'm going to brew this on sunday. Still haven't finalized my recipe yet, I'm going to try to hit LHBS tonight to find some hops to use. I haven't bought hops in forever since I have a nice stockpile, but most of them are good for american beers.

I think I'm going to go for a long boil and I thought I'd look at my 2007 barleywine notes to see what it took for the long boil. Thought the numbers might help someone else going to do a long boil.

I use a converted keg for my kettle and that brew was in november so the temp and humidity are a bit different but at least its a data point.

I had 23.5 lbs of grain (22lbs was base malt). At the time this was my biggest beer so I wasn't sure what kind of efficiency I would get.

I ended up doing 3 batch sparges to get what I needed. Collected 12.5 gallons total and boiled it down to get 6 gal in the fermenter. This took 4 hours once it hit the kettle. I missed my planned OG by 3 points, but I was happy with the 1.110 that I got. 2lbs of turbinado sugar went into the kettle when I started boiling

That beer turned out great and I won a bunch of awards with it. It will be at the GABF pro-am this year.

I don't think I would do another 4 hour boil again, I'd just use a bit more grain. I think a 2-2.5 hour boil would be a reasonable tradeoff.

 

[deepsouth]

does anyone know of an extract recipe to try for this?

i'm VERY new to brewing, but i've probably drank a couple cases of westvleteren 12 over the last couple years and i'd love to be able to even get in the ballpark.

 

[saq]

Probably something like this would be a decent extract recipe for a 5.5g batch
120 min boil means somewhere around 8-8.5g preboil volume
5.75lbs pale liquid malt extract
5.75lbs pilsener liquid malt extract
2 bottles (3lbs) of Dark Candi Syrup (D1)
use the same hop schedule and yeast

 

[saq]

I think I'm going to brew this on sunday. Still haven't finalized my recipe yet, I'm going to try to hit LHBS tonight to find some hops to use. I haven't bought hops in forever since I have a nice stockpile, but most of them are good for american beers.

I think I'm going to go for a long boil and I thought I'd look at my 2007 barleywine notes to see what it took for the long boil. Thought the numbers might help someone else going to do a long boil.

I use a converted keg for my kettle and that brew was in november so the temp and humidity are a bit different but at least its a data point.

I had 23.5 lbs of grain (22lbs was base malt). At the time this was my biggest beer so I wasn't sure what kind of efficiency I would get.

I ended up doing 3 batch sparges to get what I needed. Collected 12.5 gallons total and boiled it down to get 6 gal in the fermenter. This took 4 hours once it hit the kettle. I missed my planned OG by 3 points, but I was happy with the 1.110 that I got. 2lbs of turbinado sugar went into the kettle when I started boiling

That beer turned out great and I won a bunch of awards with it. It will be at the GABF pro-am this year.

I don't think I would do another 4 hour boil again, I'd just use a bit more grain. I think a 2-2.5 hour boil would be a reasonable tradeoff.

I think a 2 hour boil is probably where this one is at. I'm also think that adding the candi syrup early in the boil is going to help promote some more color. Unless you are doing a really large batch I don't think you'll have problems maxing out your MLT with this one. 17.5lbs of grain can go into my 10g MLT @ 1.5qt/lbs pretty easily

 

[Freezeblade]

Probably something like this would be a decent extract recipe for a 5.5g batch
120 min boil means somewhere around 8-8.5g preboil volume
5.75lbs pale liquid malt extract
5.75lbs pilsener liquid malt extract
2 bottles (3lbs) of Dark Candi Syrup (D1)
use the same hop schedule and yeast

You forgot that he's not doing any decoct, therefor not adding any breadyness, I'd probably say at least a tiny mini-mash, just to throw in some biscuit/aromatic to add back that breadyness. Something more like this:

.5# pale malt
.5# pilsner malt
.25# Biscuit
.25# Aromatic

5.25# pale liquid malt extract
5.25# pilsner malt extract

 

[Bokonon]

I think a 2 hour boil is probably where this one is at. I'm also think that adding the candi syrup early in the boil is going to help promote some more color. Unless you are doing a really large batch I don't think you'll have problems maxing out your MLT with this one. 17.5lbs of grain can go into my 10g MLT @ 1.5qt/lbs pretty easily

I've got a 70 quart MLT so I can definitely go big. I'm considering kicking up the grain so I get what I need from the 1st runnings for this and then collecting enough for a blonde. I'll have to revisit my last partigyle notes to see what numbers I had for that.

Regardless of what I do I'll try to pull samples at certain points and take some pics. It would be nice to see what color the wort is before the boil and then at a few points through a long boil

Edit: Maybe we can get a list of people commited to doing this and put it in the first post. I haven't participated in a swap on here, how would it work? Send beer to everyone doing it or each person send to two others? Regardless of the way I think it would be cool to setup a date/time for everyone to get in the chat room and sample the beers at the same time and discuss

 

[BeerPressure]

I subscribed to this thread. I will probably brew one of these recipes sometime this summer.

 

[saq]

Bokonon thats exactly what I was thinking.

Lets start a list of everyone who is dedicated to brewing this beer within the next two weeks for the brew & swap, and also for getting on chat at the same time (at an undetermined date in the future) and do a live group tasting.

I think the number should be small so we don't get wasted during the tasting. I also think we should be looking at only all-grain brews since the main mission of this project is to replicate the famous Westy 12.

I'll edit the first post later for more info on the two recipe guidelines we will be using, along with the concrete information known about this beer.

I'll start the list of people that have said they are in that will be doing all grain. Please confirm that you are down for brewing this soon and swapping with the other people in about 4 months. I think we should limit this to 10 people.
1: saq (confirmed)
2: Freezeblade
3: Bokonon
4: Saccharomyces
5: KingBrianI (confirmed)
6: Displaced Masshole
7: bashe

 

[KingBrianI]

You can confirm me, I'll definitely be brewing this. I've got all the ingredients on their way to me right now (minus the northern brewer hops and dark candi sugar I'll have to buy at the lhbs). I ordered Hallertau hops before you posted that it actually uses hallertauer hersbrucker, do you think the plain hallertau will be close enough or should I try to locate some hersbrucker? Also, does anyone know what percentage of the fermentables come from the sugar? I'm going to aim for 30+ SRM in beersmith and hope the decoction and long boil take the color up to 40. I'm a bit worried about the amount of dark candi sugar it seems like I'll need to use to get the SRM to 30 though. Also, how the heck do you say westvleteren? That's been bugging me and when I tell people what I'm planning to brew I feel dumb saying, "well, umm, west...uh...vel-et-eren? maybe". haha

 

[KingBrianI]

Here's my updated recipe as of right now. It is adjusted to 85% efficiency and a 5.5 gal batch.

OG 1.090
IBU 37.9
SRM 30.5 not including decoction and boil darkening
FG 1.011
ABV% 10.36

6.5 lbs. Dingeman's Pale malt
6.5 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner malt

1.75 lbs. dark candi syrup (homemade)
1.0 lb. dark candi sugar (store bought 275L stuff)
both added during vigorous fermentation (~3 days after pitch)

1.36 oz. Northern Brewer (60 min.)
0.25 oz. Hallertauer (15 min.)
0.25 oz. Styrian Golding (15 min.)
0.25 oz. Hallertauer (flameout)
0.25 oz. Styrian Golding (flameout)

Mashed with an enhanced double decoction with rests at 97 degrees, 133 degrees and 149 degrees before mashout at 168.

Boil will be 2 hrs.

I'll use a big starter of Wyeast 3787 (Trappist High Gravity). I'll pitch at 66-68 degrees and then let it ramp up to 82-84 until fermented out completely. Bring back to ~70 degrees until about a month after pitching. Then rack to secondary for "lagering" at about 50 degrees for ~3 more weeks. Bottle and carbonate at 78 degrees.

The only thing I might change at this point would be to add a bit more of the homemade dark candy syrup to bring the sugars up to 20% of total fermentables. I would of course lower the grain amounts slightly so that OG remains 1.090. How does it look?

 

[deepsouth]

i googled and came up with this recipe.... any thoughts?


0.66 lbs. Belgian Caramunich®
0.68 lbs. American Caramel 20°L
7.95 lbs. Liquid Light Extract
3.42 lbs. Dry Extra Light Extract
0.26 lbs. Candi Sugar Dark
1.3 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (Pellets, 4.50 %AA) boiled 60 min.
0.50 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (Pellets, 4.50 %AA) boiled 15 min.
0.50 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (Pellets, 4.50 %AA) boiled 1 min.
Yeast : WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity



BeerTools.com Recipe Library - Westvleteren Abt 12 Clone

 

[Bokonon]

I think the number should be small so we don't get wasted during the tasting. I also think we should be looking at only all-grain brews since the main mission of this project is to replicate the famous Westy 12.

Since these are all big beers I wonder if it would be good to do the tastings over a span of time. Rather than trying to sample a bunch of beers in one session and not appreciating them or getting palate fatigue. Depending on how many beers maybe it should be limited to 2-3 in a tasting session.

 

[saq]

Since these are all big beers I wonder if it would be good to do the tastings over a span of time. Rather than trying to sample a bunch of beers in one session and not appreciating them or getting palate fatigue. Depending on how many beers maybe it should be limited to 2-3 in a tasting session.

Well I've only got one authentic bottle of Westvleteren 12
I was planning on doing my tasting with two friends who have had the real deal before and have really good palates. I'll be online in chat at the same time of course to talk with the rest of you.

 

[Freezeblade]

you can confirm me, but I'm going to have to wait untill the 20th, as I'm coming up on finals week, and have no time to brew

 

[saq]

First post updated with a lot of info.

 

[MacBruver]

Damn...if only this was a month later. I'm supposed to close on a house I'm buying on friday, no way in hell I'm brewing anything any time soon. I'll be watching this thread for sure though.

 

[Bokonon]

After visiting my LHBS last night I've come to the conclusion that I'm just going to have to brew like a monk and use the closest stuff I can get. They don't have dingemans malt anymore and no styrian goldings.

I'm still going to brew something like this, but who knows if it will be a clone. If there are too many people doing this I can opt out of the swap since I'll probably be the least closest version.

I've got a couple hundred pounds of base malt at home (german pils, domestic 2-row, maris otter, munich, vienna) and a big variety of specialty grains.

I'm definitely going to use some german pils and probably some domestic 2-row. I've got some belgian specialty grains I could use.

If anything, this is going to turn into a Pacificnorthwestvleteren 12

 

[saq]

Indeed brewing like a monk is encouraged. I'm sure if you don't use Dingemans or Styrian Goldings it's not going to ruin the beer. Hell we might find a combo that is superior to the original!
I'd say use the german pils and domestic 2-row and see what happens. The most important part of this beer is obviously the yeast (easy to reproduce) and then the sugars IMO.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I'm planning to use Franco Belges pils, Canada malting 2-row toasted in the oven, home-made dark candi sugar with DAP, and Mt Hood hops.

Differences in process/ingredients are one of the things that make the swaps worthwhile to begin with. If everybody brewed exactly the same beer it would be less interesting!

 

[saq]

Water Profile
Brew Like A Monk reports that Westvleteren has a water profile that is not the most desirable for brewing, and specifically states that they treat their water because its high in bicarbonates, sodium, sulfate and chloride. The profile of Westvleteren's water profile is as such.

Westvleteren Water Profile
Calcium: 114
Bicarbonate: 370
Magnesium: 10
Sodium: 125
Sulfate: 145
Chloride: 139

I was thinking about how I would want to treat it, and remember reading that Chimay has a wonderful water profile, and several brewing chemists consider it "perfect for brewing". I think this might be pretty damn close to what Westvleteren shoots for when they treat it.

Chimay Water Profile
Calcium: 96
Bicarbonate: 287
Magnesium: 4
Sodium: 6
Sulfate: 32
Chloride: 13

This fits in with what water chemistry I know about water profiles for dark beers that is also confirmed by BLAM as being desirable for a Belgian Dark Strong Ale.

I have also added this to the first post.

 

[Displaced MassHole]

You can confirm me for this one as well. I'm not gonna be able to brew until the end of this month though, all my fermenters will be tied up until then.

On a side note......anyone in the San Diego are know of a place that sells the DAP yeast nutrient? I couldn't find any at Ralph's or Von's.