Weihenstephaner Vitus Recipes Thoughts

[slarkin712]

The recipe is good. The key to this beer is fermentation. Underpitch the yeast, keep wort aeration low, and control fermentation temperatures. One might try decoction, but I think the yeast derived flavors are the most critical part of this beer. Better luck next time. Keep good notes about all your procedures, and you should begin to understand and improve the beer each time you brew it.

 

[slarkin712]

Made another attempt at this back in May. I definitely have the hot side brewing part of this recipe down pat. Hit all my numbers: mash pH, OG, post-boil volume. I had a huge amount of trub after chilling to 61F - more trub than normal. Some time after brewing this I ran across this post on brulosopher's blog:
http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

From the post:
"In one study, researchers measured the impact of kettle trub on levels of isoamyl acetate (banana) and ethyl acetate (nail polish remover), splitting the same wort into 3 fermentors with the following trub volumes:

Low trub: .13 mg/ml
Moderate trub: 1.7 mg/ml
High trub: 15.9 mg/ml

To put this in a more understandable context, let’s consider what this would look like for a typical 5 gallon batch of beer:

Low trub: 0.1 oz (essentially nothing)
Moderate trub: 1.13 oz (probably close to what homebrewers who care can achieve)
High trub: 10.56 oz (quite a bit)

They found the wort with the most trub produced a beer with significantly lower levels of the aforementioned ester compounds. Huh?! We’re talking 106 times more trub than the beer in the low trub condition, equivalent to nearly 3/4 lb of kettle sludge in a 5 gallon batch. With all of my skepticism, not even I expected this. Fascinating."


If I interpret that correctly, and the findings are true, then less trub would yield more isoamyl acetate(banana) flavor. This is at the top of my list of things to try on my next re-brew of this recipe.

The results of this last batch were not as good as the prior batch. Had a hint of heat from alcohol and not enough banana. Not much pear or bubblegum either. More spicy than fruity. I did use a single smack pack without a starter as before, but this pack was nearly a month old and I got it from a shop rather than a yeast group buy, so I can't be certain how well it was handled. My guess is that this severe under-pitching is what lead to the "hot" off flavor. Best to make a small starter if using older yeast. Planning a rebrew for early November. I feel like I'm getting closer to a clone even though the results haven't been great.

 

[TheBeerDetective]

This thread has immensely helped my brew day tomorrow. Thanks guys! 🍻


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[CsaintG]

Definitely want to try this. I thought I read that one of the homebrew suppliers that is affiliated with this forum has a kit for this. Does anyone know which supplier that is?

 

[NedStackey]

I was just curious to see if anyone tested this with lower trub volumes and if that increased the isoamyl acetate.

 

[slarkin712]

I haven't been able to do the trub test. Someone should ask brulosophy to do this.

 

[DromJohn]

Definitely want to try this. I thought I read that one of the homebrew suppliers that is affiliated with this forum has a kit for this. Does anyone know which supplier that is?

Barley & Vine All-Grain Vitus.
Barley & Vine Extract Vitus

 

[Loco]

This thread helped me brew the following last December, came out great with a smooth banana taste to it

3,61 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (4,0 EBC) Grain 1 51,5 %
1,75 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3,0 EBC) Grain 2 25,0 %
1,50 kg Munich Malt (15,0 EBC) Grain 3 21,4 %
0,15 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59,1 EBC) Grain 4 2,1 %
35,00 g Spalter Select [3,10 %] - Boil 60,0 min Hop 5 10,8 IBUs
20,00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3,60 %] - Boil 30,0 min Hop 6 5,5 IBUs
4,00 g Irish Moss (Boil 10,0 mins) Fining 7 -
10,00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3,60 %] - Boil 5,0 min Hop 8 0,7 IBUs
1,0 pkg Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [124,21 ml] Yeast 9 -


Didn't ferment over 17°c at any time and left it only one week lagering at 4c

 

[slarkin712]

This thread helped me brew the following last December, came out great with a smooth banana taste to it

3,61 kg Wheat Malt, Bel (4,0 EBC) Grain 1 51,5 %
1,75 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3,0 EBC) Grain 2 25,0 %
1,50 kg Munich Malt (15,0 EBC) Grain 3 21,4 %
0,15 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (59,1 EBC) Grain 4 2,1 %
35,00 g Spalter Select [3,10 %] - Boil 60,0 min Hop 5 10,8 IBUs
20,00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3,60 %] - Boil 30,0 min Hop 6 5,5 IBUs
4,00 g Irish Moss (Boil 10,0 mins) Fining 7 -
10,00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3,60 %] - Boil 5,0 min Hop 8 0,7 IBUs
1,0 pkg Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) [124,21 ml] Yeast 9 -


Didn't ferment over 17°c at any time and left it only one week lagering at 4c

That's great. I'm still trying to improve the results from my attempts. I never seem to get much banana. Did you make a yeast starter and how old was the yeast? Also, did you oxygenate the wort before pitching the yeast?

 

[Loco]

Nope I just smacked the pack on the morning of brew day and pitched in the evening.
I don't know how to make a starter yet, that was just my 6th batch since i begun brewing, so i'm learning, and learning, and learning and it will probably never end
I had bought the yeast like 3/4 weeks prior to brewday, it was totally fresh.
Yes I did oxygenate the wort a lot in order to make sure the little cells had plenty to reproduce.


I'm looking through my notes , here is what i had written.

Yeast at 20c (68F) pitched in a wort that was at 17c (62F)

Date / STC / STC Settings / Cardboy sticker
22/11/2015 x x 16/18
23/11/2015 x x 16/18
23/11/2015 17.9 18 x
24/11/2015 17.6 17.5 x
24/11/2015 17.8 17 16/18
25/11/2015 17.3 16.5 16/18
25/11/2015 17.1 16.5 x
26/11/2015 16.9 16.5 18
27/11/2015 15.6 17 16
28/11/2015 16.8 17 x
29/11/2015 x 17 x
30/11/2015 17 17 16/18
01/12/2015 16.3 17 16/18
01/12/2015 16 17.5 16
02/12/2015 17 17 18
03/12/2015 17.1 17 16/18
04/12/2015 17.1 17 18
05/12/2015 16.6 17 16/18
06/12/2015 16.6 17 16/18

Average 16.91875 17.02941176 17.2

Sorry just copied that from an excel file, it's not very comfortable to read.
Anyways very low fermentation temperature and the krausen just spread everywhere , the fermentation and yeast where very healthy.

 

[Leipzig]

you all should try and get your hands on WLP611 New Nordic Blend. Might sound crazy, but the yeast puts out serious banana aroma & flavor when fermented in the low to mid 60's. I brewed an amazing weissbier with it 3 weeks ago. Others (in the White Labs Vault thread) are having similar results (banana).

i'm going to make a big weizenbock with my last vial.

 

[milldoggy]

you all should try and get your hands on WLP611 New Nordic Blend. Might sound crazy, but the yeast puts out serious banana aroma & flavor when fermented in the low to mid 60's. I brewed an amazing weissbier with it 3 weeks ago. Others (in the White Labs Vault thread) are having similar results (banana).

i'm going to make a big weizenbock with my last vial.

Send me a 12 oz yeast sample please

 

[slarkin712]

you all should try and get your hands on WLP611 New Nordic Blend. Might sound crazy, but the yeast puts out serious banana aroma & flavor when fermented in the low to mid 60's. I brewed an amazing weissbier with it 3 weeks ago. Others (in the White Labs Vault thread) are having similar results (banana).

i'm going to make a big weizenbock with my last vial.

I would gladly trade something(beer or yeast) for a bit of the WLP611. I'd love to try this in a weizenbock.

 

[Leipzig]

I've never purchased from here, but BarleyHaven appears to be selling WLP611
http://barleyhaven.com/wlp611-new-nordic-yeast-blend.html

 

[slarkin712]

I ordered some from barley haven. I'm going to make the Vitus recipe with this yeast. Pitch at temp around 62F and hold there. Wondering if I should oxygenate the wort prior to pitching. Definitely going to make a yeast starter.

 

[Leipzig]

I brewed a a weissbier (1.052 OG) and a high gravity baltic porter (1.105 OG) with WLP611. Both were fermented at 62 Degrees.

With the medium gravity weissbier 611 yielded 76% attenuation
With the high gravity porter 611 yielded 64% attenuation... I had to finish the beer with WLP001 to get the FG I was hoping for.

Not sure what OG your Vitus clone will have, but I would oxygenate the hell out of it. I'd guess that at an OG of 1.08 WLP611 is going to give you around 70% attenuation.

I worked up a recipe for a weizenbock last night that will have an OG of 1.076. Hopefully I find time to brew it in the next 2 weeks.

 

[Loco]

Wondering if I should oxygenate the wort prior to pitching. Definitely going to make a yeast starter.

I'm a beginner with only 6 complete batches behind me, the only time I brewed something undrinkable i had forgotten to aerate the wort (ok i also had a pitch temperature too high for the Belgian strain i was using and probably threw in too many spices in that beer).

Anyways for the vitus clone I aerated in order to get a nice foam on top of the liquid and then pitched and kept it at the temperatures described above.

I get that nice nice banana flavor and am pretty happy about it, IMHO I think in this beer style the cereals are one thing, you can play around with the pourcentages of wheat, cara-something , pils but the Weihenstephan strain and fermentation is what packs the punch.

Should i do it again with another strain I would still aerate it a lot, I wouldn't want to get caught with off flavors due to yeast dying prematurely in the cardboy.

 

[jmrybak]

I ordered some from barley haven. I'm going to make the Vitus recipe with this yeast. Pitch at temp around 62F and hold there. Wondering if I should oxygenate the wort prior to pitching. Definitely going to make a yeast starter.

I'm not going to tell you to not make a starter. But I pitched a vial of the WLP611 straight into a slightly higher gravity (1.056) hefe, and got 83% attenuation and great banana flavor, in about 4-5 days at 68F. Recipe and details here if you are interested.

I will also say that a starter definitely impacted the blend of the 3 strains used in WLP611. I cannot yet say how impact the shift is in the flavors produced, but both starter and post fermentation harvests had altered blend strain proportions. Slightly more details here if interested.

Just be aware that a starter with WLP611, as with any blend, can alter your blend composition.

 

[Leipzig]

I ordered some from barley haven. I'm going to make the Vitus recipe with this yeast. Pitch at temp around 62F and hold there. Wondering if I should oxygenate the wort prior to pitching. Definitely going to make a yeast starter.

Did your 611 arrive?
Interested to know if Barley Haven came through on the order... I'd like to get my hands on more 611.

 

[bobo31]

I brewed this some time ago but it was very Vitus like. Weizenbock (2014 gold medal)

I recommend the WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale Yeast it has a very nice banana profile.

 

[Leipzig]

I brewed my Weizenbock this weekend.
OG came in low however, 1.065 (was aiming for 1.071).
I pitched a single vial of WLP611 and this morning it was rolling @ 70 degrees.

 

[bigmike86]

Any updates from recent brews? This is one of my favorites, would love to give it a shot.

 

[Leipzig]

WLP611 did not in any way give my attempt at Vitus the same banana ester that it provided in my recent Bavarian Weiss. The "Weizenbock" wasn't a bad beer, just wasn't Vitus, just wasn't what I was aiming for.

 

[nir]

hi i am nir from israel
i read almost all the posts about wieznbock vitos
i deicide to try the first recpie an it probably the best beer i brew
<iframe width="100%" height="500px" src="http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/383862" frameborder="0"></iframe>
i do no chill and the mash temp was 64C
kept the bottles in cold condition about 18C
THANK YOU FOR THIS GREAT RECIPE

 

[DromJohn]

5 gallon, 60 min, 155F
3 lb 6 oz Light Munich (Weyermann)
14 oz Pale Wheat (Weyermann)
14 oz Pilsner (Gambrinus Organic)
6 oz Melanoidin (Weyermann)

3.3 oz Bavarian Wheat LME (Briess)
2 lb Pilsen DME (Briess)
2 lb Wheat DME (Briess)
1 oz Spalt, German (60 min)
2/3 oz Hallertau, German (15 min)
1/3 oz Hallertau, German (5 min)

Hefeweizen Ale Yeast WLP300, no starter, pitched at 78F

2 weeks primary, 3 weeks bottle

SWMBO choice, starting with @loco 's recipe above, converted to inferior lb/oz weights, converted to partial-something, tweaked for ABV/IBU and whole ounces. Ingredients were 100% from Barley & Vine, which sadly are going through their closing sale. First taste 21 January 2017.

 

[DromJohn]

Not a clone.
In a side by side tasting, mine is significantly darker, with more bite, some of it caramel (Melanoidin?), some of it black pepper (Spalt?).
I would replace the Melanoidin with wheat and reduce the Spalt.
OTOH, the WLP300 is nice.

That said, I like mine better.

SWMBO prefers real Vitus but likes mine, and affirms that this is a failed clone.

 

[aaronm13]

Brewed this a few weeks back using the recipe in the OP. Bottled last week and sampled last night. Was surprised how quickly it carbed up. Have to say even in its early stages it's really good and not a million miles away from Vitus. Colour was slightly darker but still had the cloudiness of Vitus. My yeast seemed very sluggish during fermentation for some reason so don't think I got it's full profile but definitely get hints of banana. Has a bit of a funky smell for want of a better word that I'm not happy about. Smelled like vitus in the fermenter but unfortunately this is gone. Overall I'm really happy with it and would brew again. Going to Germany rnext week so will be able to sample the real deal in the Weihenstephaner bar, just for educational purposes though.

 

[Beerswimmer]

My best success was

7lbs pils
7lbs red wheat
1/4lb Special B

1 smack pack 3068, no starter

Mash @150

ferment start @ 68F and let free rise in a 72F room.

Banana, clove, malt.

 

[danbrough]

Vitus is one of my favorite beers. I've been making wheat beers for ages and have never been particularly happy with the banana/clove mix from 3068/WLP300. What strikes me about vitus is it's a bit Belgian, some bubblegum and orange behind the strong clove and banana.
Often the yeast packs I get are a bit old and I seem to do better batches top-cropping the first and pitching a small amount of healthy yeast with plenty of aeration and also yeast nutrient. Avoiding trub helps with the esters too. One of biggest improvements was using "speisse" to bottle condition. I reserve around 10% of the wort in the freezer till its ready to bottle. You need the fizz with hefe's and weizenbocks and sugar ruins the body and hefes are not meant to be 6% and dry tasting.

Anyhow, I havent had a vitus in 6 years as I've never seen it in NZ, till last week.
I added some wort to the dreggs, swirled and poured it into a jar. It was fizzing after a day and I topped the jar up to around 300ml and once there was some brown yeast lumps on top I grabbed those and added them to a second jar, which I then built up to pitching size.

I could smell that it was the Vitus yeast!

My first hefe I've made with this yeast has almost finished and its a very different yeast than 3068.
I didn't get a big krausen, though there is plenty of yeast on top.
I'm fermenting at 22c and I've never come across that amount of phenols using other german wheat beer yeasts, nor banana.
Its got a strong banana nose, plenty of clove underneath but also vanilla and some cinnamon spice and orange.
Its definitely Vitus.

According to the stats, Vitus is 7.7% ABV, 17 IBU, 5 SRM? and 16.5% gravity by weight, I assume this is same as brix which equates with 1.067 OG.
So to get 7.7% you need to finish at 1.009 which is a whopping 86% attenuation. (3068 is 73 - 77%).

I often use the split mash technique to increase the attenuation of my wheat beers.
1: Take half the grain and mash at 63c in a thick mash for half an hour to generate the maltose.
2: Mix with the rest of the grain and lots of cold water for a mash at around 4L/kg at 39c, to produce dextrose. 1 hour.
3: Proceed from there.
I usually raise it all to 65c, pull a thick decoction to 70c for 10m, boil 15 mins, mix and raise it all up to 70c till converted.
For getting a clean low trub wort, I'll often then drain the mash from the tun and boil the wort for 20 mins and then add it back to the mash tun
before recirculation. (Leaving lots of break material behind in the mash).

My understanding of the logic behind that is that the enzymes that convert maltose to glucose/dextrose get denatured at high temps,
so you produce the maltose using half the mash and then rest all of it back down at 39c to produce glucose/dextrose.
More glucose results in more attenuation and also banana. The rests at 70c provide enough dextrins to maintain the body.

My plan for a Vitus clone would be 60% wheat and 20% Vienna and Pilsner. Maybe a large first wort addition of something noble, like hallertau and a single 10 min addition, but the hops arent that important as long as they are in the background.

Good luck!

 

[danbrough]

As a follow up. I made a weizenbock with the Vitus yeast (and also a hefe).
I followed my plan as posted previously but went with 50% wheat, 30% Pilsner and 20% Vienna.
Very happy with it. The vitus yeast was easy to use and though it's quite young, my weizenbock is tasting great with no noticeable off-flavours.
Much higher attenuation than 3068/WLP300. No sulphur either. Flocculateswell.
Unfortunately I couldn't get a Vitus to compare it too, but it smells and tastes like the real thing (from memory).