Weihenstephaner Vitus Recipes Thoughts

[slarkin712]

Thanks slarkin712.

Can you give me the malt breakdown with the successful recipe? E.g. Wheat malt X lbs etc.

Just start with the recipe I posted in the first post. The grain flavors, body and color were very good with that recipe. The problem was the yeast derived flavors, which are the most important. As said before do not oxygenate the wort or very little. Pitch healthy yeast, with nearly the correct cell count. And do the bulk of fermentation between 65-68F.

 

[CAbrewing]

Thanks slarkin,

Sorry I may have already asked this, but is the original recipe an extract recipe or all-grain?

If it is all-grain, how can I convert it to extract?

 

[slarkin712]

The original recipe is all grain. If you want to make it with malt extract you're going to have a hard time getting the vienna malt flavor. You'll probably need to use munich malt extract, but it will be a little too dark. For a 5 gallon batch I would use 8 lbs wheat malt liquid extract and 1.5 lbs munich liquid malt extract. Like I said it will be darker than Vitus, but I think it could make a good beer. The conversion from all grain was done like this.
Wheat LME is 65% wheat malt and 35% pilsner
Munich LME is 50% munich malt and 50% pale malt
The recipe is 55% wheat malt, 22% pilsner malt, 22% vienna malt, and 1% melanoidin. With 8 lbs wheat LME you get 37*8=296 gravity points and 1.5 lbs munich LME gives 36*1.5=54 points. So the OG would be 350 points/5 gallons = 1.070. The percentages are 8*.65/9.5 = 55% wheat, 1.5*.5/9.5 = 8%, and (8*.35+1.5*.5)/9.5 = 37% pale/pilsner. So there is a little higher percentage of pilsner/pale, but using equal amounts of munich and pale/pilsner would make it too dark and may give too much munich flavor. Munich is like a toastier, breadier, less soft version of vienna. And you don't need melanoidin, as LME already has some of those flavors.
Hope that helps.

 

[CAbrewing]

Awesome! Thanks slarkin712.
This helps greatly and your conversions make a lot of sense. I am new to brewing so I haven't graduated to all-grain brewing just yet. Only just finished brewing my third batch yesterday (AHS Pliny the Elder clone - the hopping schedule was a blast!) I think after I brew my first maibock I will give this a try as an extract recipe. Ill post results as soon as I brew the batch.
Cheers

 

[mkravitz13]

I think the original recipe is a very good start. As mentioned you might add a little more vienna or a little more wheat and it'll be good. Still no rebrew for me yet, but as I stated before I mad a hefe with the right yeast flavor profile last month, so I'm ready to try the Vitus recipe again. I'm going to slightly under pitch the yeast, add no oxygen when in fermentor and pitch at 62 and let raise to 65-66F.

ayo slark,

anyword on a successful vitus weizenbock re-do? i've gotten ahold of some hallertau hersbrucker and want to give this style a try!

also, curious to see that's there's no munich malt in your original grain bill...looks like wheat and munich are pretty standard for weizenbocks...

 

[slarkin712]

The rebrew of this is going to be my next batch, hopefully in the next 2-3 weeks. In regards to style, Vitus doesn't fit the bjcp weizenbock guidelines. It is much lighter (SRM 6), and doesn't have the dark fruit or light chocolate flavor that you get from other Weizenbocks. Vitus is more like a scaled up weiss, whereas a typical weizenbock is a scaled up dunkelweiss. So the main reason for not using Munich or any other dark malts is to keep the color light. I added Vienna to get some light maltiness and a little biscuit flavor.

 

[ApothecaryBrewing]

I may be out of my element here but if you are looking for a more pronounced banana and clove nose with the hefe yeasts, fermentation shouldn't drop below 68F and should go as high as 74F or so.

I just did a simple Weissbier with German Wheat, German Pilsner and a touch of Aromatic Malt. Threw in 1 ounce of Hallertau split 25-75 between bittering and aroma. I pitched 2 x Wyeast 3068 and fermented right around 71F.

The product was a solid malt backbone with a smooth, not overwhelming, banana nose followed with a slight clove. Ultimately my best beer to date and I am an IPA fan

Either way, I have found temps closer to 72F produce the notes I like in my wheat beers. I am not a fan of the banana bread flavor... too sweet. Subtle notes are all I am looking for. End Tangent!

 

[slarkin712]

The more I think about it, I'm leaning toward fermenting warmer. I'm just leary, as I brewed a weiss without temp control once that got up to 77F and I thought it tasted terrible. It had bubblegum, strawberry, and butterscotch flavors. Yuck. Maybe I'll pitch at 66F and let raise to 70F and hold for a few days, and then ramp up to 72F to help it finish.

 

[mkravitz13]

hey slarkin,

would you mind posting your most successful grain bill to date for this recipe? you mentioned earlier in your posts that you adjusted your vienna and pilsner from the original recipe and got better results that way.

also, did you use a yeast starter?

 

[mkravitz13]

brewed this beer with a buddy last weekend. increased the vienna a 1/2 pound and decreased the pilsner by 1/2 pound per the previous suggestions in the thread.

pitched 1L starter of wyeast 3068 at roughly 62F. blew off like crazy for 2 straight days. majority of the vigorous activity was at 68F. its dropped down to 66F now with still some airlock activity. almost been 1 week in the primary now.

planning on doing an additional week in primary @ 66-68F and then considering cold conditioning in secondary for 1-2 weeks. slarkin, you have any carbing probs after the long cold conditioning?

-max

 

[slarkin712]

Just brewed this again last Sunday. Had a boil off issue and ended up with a OG of 1.064. Recipe was:
8 lbs American white wheat
2.5 lbs German Pilsner
3 lbs German Vienna

I decided to drop the melanoidin, as it was such a small amount and made the beer darker, which I am trying to avoid. I didn't aerate the wort at all, not even shaking bucket. Pitched 3/4 of recommended yeast count(Yeastcalc.com). Pitched at 65F and let raise to 68F where nearly all the fermentation has been taking place. Crazy blow-off for 2 days, moreso than when fermented at 64-65F. Hydro sample today at 1.018 was super fruity and sweet. Hope it dries out.

 

[slarkin712]

brewed this beer with a buddy last weekend. increased the vienna a 1/2 pound and decreased the pilsner by 1/2 pound per the previous suggestions in the thread.

pitched 1L starter of wyeast 3068 at roughly 62F. blew off like crazy for 2 straight days. majority of the vigorous activity was at 68F. its dropped down to 66F now with still some airlock activity. almost been 1 week in the primary now.

planning on doing an additional week in primary @ 66-68F and then considering cold conditioning in secondary for 1-2 weeks. slarkin, you have any carbing probs after the long cold conditioning?

-max

No carbing problems after cold conditioning. This yeast stays in suspension very well, so there will be plenty left for carbing. I think I'm going to do 1 week at 50F for my current batch and then bottle.

 

[Rambleon]

No carbing problems after cold conditioning. This yeast stays in suspension very well, so there will be plenty left for carbing. I think I'm going to do 1 week at 50F for my current batch and then bottle.

Any progress on the recipe?

 

[slarkin712]

It's still bottle carbing. But I did have one a few days ago, and it was nearly carbed up. Really nice wheat/bready/tart flavor and the color is right where it should be. Still missing the big banana flavor in Vitus. I just get these generic estery flavors with a hint of banana. Back to the drawing board. Could it have something to do with my water? Or maybe I need to add a little bit of oxygen? This last batch attenuated fine (FG 1.009) without any aeration, which was a nice result. Until I can come up with some other ideas I think I'm going to change to using RO water and build a very simple water profile. My water is high in sodium and sulfate, and is pretty hard.

 

[Leipzig]

Long time lurker, finally signed up today.

Really enjoyed reading through this thread as I too am a huge fan of Vitus.

I'm an extract brewer who has yet to make the jump to all grain, but recently had various liquid malt extracts left over following two 5 gallon batches (maibock & dunkel weizen).

What I was left with was:
3.8 Lbs of Wheat LME
2.0 Lbs of Pilsen LME
1.5 Lbs of Munich LME

Figured I might as well throw together a "hybrid" weizenbock of sorts... so this weekend I brewed a 3.5 gallon batch using the LME above along with .4 oz of German Hallertau and .8 oz of Tettnag @60min. After brewing, the wort was heavily aerated, chilled to 62 degrees and pitched with two smack packs of Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan (no starter, poured the inflated packs straight into the carboy).

It’s been fermenting vigorously in the basement for 36 hours with an ambient room temperature of 61 degrees. I figure the brew is probably around 64 degrees due to heat from the yeast. When I get home from work today I am going to move the carboy into a hallway with a 67 degree ambient temp for the remainder of fermentation.

In two weeks I will transfer to keg and condition at 45 degrees for a few weeks before consumption.

I too am hoping to get some banana flavor, so perhaps despite my bastard weizenbock having far too much Munich, it can be of some use to our overall knowledge considering I heavily aerated the wort and pitched a relatively large amount of yeast (seems the recent attempts have involved low oxygen & low yeast). I will taste when I transfer to the keg and post impressions.

Prost.

 

[slarkin712]

Long time lurker, finally signed up today.

Really enjoyed reading through this thread as I too am a huge fan of Vitus.

I'm an extract brewer who has yet to make the jump to all grain, but recently had various liquid malt extracts left over following two 5 gallon batches (maibock & dunkel weizen).

What I was left with was:
3.8 Lbs of Wheat LME
2.0 Lbs of Pilsen LME
1.5 Lbs of Munich LME

Figured I might as well throw together a "hybrid" weizenbock of sorts... so this weekend I brewed a 3.5 gallon batch using the LME above along with .4 oz of German Hallertau and .8 oz of Tettnag @60min. After brewing, the wort was heavily aerated, chilled to 62 degrees and pitched with two smack packs of Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan (no starter, poured the inflated packs straight into the carboy).

It’s been fermenting vigorously in the basement for 36 hours with an ambient room temperature of 61 degrees. I figure the brew is probably around 64 degrees due to heat from the yeast. When I get home from work today I am going to move the carboy into a hallway with a 67 degree ambient temp for the remainder of fermentation.

In two weeks I will transfer to keg and condition at 45 degrees for a few weeks before consumption.

I too am hoping to get some banana flavor, so perhaps despite my bastard weizenbock having far too much Munich, it can be of some use to our overall knowledge considering I heavily aerated the wort and pitched a relatively large amount of yeast (seems the recent attempts have involved low oxygen & low yeast). I will taste when I transfer to the keg and post impressions.

Prost.

Keep us posted. I've done some more digging trying to find out why I don't get the strong banana flavor. The search lead me to this thread:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12789.0

Lots of good info in there, mostly dealing with pitching rates. I think pitching rate is my problem, as I typically pitch 12-18M/mL. Anywhere from 4-6M/mL is what I should be shooting for to get strong banana flavors. I think I'm going to split up my next batch and pitch 4-6M/mL in one fermentor and 12M/mL in the other. I also re-read some of Eric Warner's weiss book, and Hieronymus's "Brewing with Wheat". In one of them I read that water profile varies greatly between commercially brewed weissbiers, and that water profile is not that significant. So, I'm just going to stick with my current water source.

 

[Leipzig]

I tasted a sample of my weizenbock last night prior to kegging. There was certainly banana, but also spice... it was actually pretty balanced. Definitely not as strong with banana as Vitus, but good none the less. Looking forward to tasting after i force carbonate.

 

[zsasbo]

Hi Slarkin,

I am excited to try out your clone. Some friends and I enjoy the Vitus often at a local shop here in Redwood City, CA. In speaking with the barkeep there, he mentioned that they spoke with the Weheinstephaner folks directly and that there is some dry hopping done with this brew at the brewery. I was a bit shocked to hear this but thought I would mention it. Going to try out your latest grain bill this week. I am going to change one thing (mainly because I have it on hand) and that is to change the yeast to WLP300. In the past, I have had excellent success with this yeast pumping banana esters into my hefe's at relatively low temps. That yeast in my hands is a wild one to control and I need to have ice on hand for about the first 2 days. at 72F it will bring in major banana tones and I usually keep it under 67 for my hefes because I like the clove flavors more, but in this case the banana is a definite requirement. Will let you know how it goes.

Would like to hear how your last recipe turned out in a taste test against the vitus!

 

[slarkin712]

Hi Slarkin,

I am excited to try out your clone. Some friends and I enjoy the Vitus often at a local shop here in Redwood City, CA. In speaking with the barkeep there, he mentioned that they spoke with the Weheinstephaner folks directly and that there is some dry hopping done with this brew at the brewery. I was a bit shocked to hear this but thought I would mention it. Going to try out your latest grain bill this week. I am going to change one thing (mainly because I have it on hand) and that is to change the yeast to WLP300. In the past, I have had excellent success with this yeast pumping banana esters into my hefe's at relatively low temps. That yeast in my hands is a wild one to control and I need to have ice on hand for about the first 2 days. at 72F it will bring in major banana tones and I usually keep it under 67 for my hefes because I like the clove flavors more, but in this case the banana is a definite requirement. Will let you know how it goes.

Would like to hear how your last recipe turned out in a taste test against the vitus!

From my taste test about 2 months ago:
"Really nice wheat/bready/tart flavor and the color is right where it should be. Still missing the big banana flavor in Vitus. I just get these generic estery flavors with a hint of banana."
Next batch will probably be brewed in June, with some experimentation with pitching rates in a couple fermentors.
I'm shocked to hear that they dry hop Vitus. Perhaps they were talking about Schneider's Mein Nelson Sauvin, which is an over-hopped weizenbock. I've had it and it's very possible that it is dry hopped.
The WL300 works just as well as 3068. I've used both in wheat beers and have gotten similar results. Good luck on your brew!

 

[zsasbo]

I went back and looked at my notes from our last visit for beers and I need to correct my statement....It was in fact the Vitus Hoplosion that was dry hopped. Not the traditional Vitus. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[ryanhope]

I hate doing decoction mashes, but stepped infusions are pretty easy if you use the tools in beersmith and make sure to account for the temp of your grains and mashtun. Have any of you tried using a ferulic acid rest on this beer?

 

[ryanhope]

When I get back from Berlin I am going to brew a hefe inspired by this beer and this post. However, I am going to use a slightly different recipe and mash schedule.

7# 2-row german pils malt
7# white german wheat malt
1# melanoiden malt

The mash profile will be a Hochkurz mash with a ferulic acid and protien rest, stepped infusion style.

30 min @ 112F (ferulic acid rest)
20 min @ 130F (protien rest)
30 min @ 144F (maltose rest)
45 min @ 162F (dextrinization rest)

 

[jhoneycutt]

Anyone come up with a GOOD clone yet?

 

[merfizle]

Anyone come up with a GOOD clone yet?

Yeah, the guys at the German American Society couldn't get enough of this one. Key is to 1/2 pitch the yeast and ferment at around 70°F.

Recipe: Revelation Hefe

Style: Weizen/Weissbier
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.72 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 8.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 9.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 83.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name
6.80 g Calcium Chloride - sparge (Mash 60.0 min)
4.00 g Calcium Chloride - mash (Mash 60.0 mins)
4.25 lbs Wheat (MFB) (1.8 SRM)
2.5 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (Rahr) (1.8 SRM)
14.0 oz Munich 20L (Briess) (20.0 SRM)
12.0 oz Caramunich I (Weyermann) (51.0 SRM)
6.0 oz Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM)
0.55 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.20 %] - Boil 45.0 Hop
1.0 pkg Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068)


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 8 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 12.00 qt of water at 172.6 F 156.0 F 60 min

 

[jhoneycutt]

Yeah, the guys at the German American Society couldn't get enough of this one. Key is to 1/2 pitch the yeast and ferment at around 70°F.

Recipe: Revelation Hefe

Style: Weizen/Weissbier
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.72 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 8.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 9.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 83.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name
6.80 g Calcium Chloride - sparge (Mash 60.0 min)
4.00 g Calcium Chloride - mash (Mash 60.0 mins)
4.25 lbs Wheat (MFB) (1.8 SRM)
2.5 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (Rahr) (1.8 SRM)
14.0 oz Munich 20L (Briess) (20.0 SRM)
12.0 oz Caramunich I (Weyermann) (51.0 SRM)
6.0 oz Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM)
0.55 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.20 %] - Boil 45.0 Hop
1.0 pkg Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068)


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 8 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 12.00 qt of water at 172.6 F 156.0 F 60 min

And this is a virus clone correct?

 

[biodarwin]

And this is a virus clone correct?

It seems the OG is way to low for a vitus.

 

[slarkin712]

And this is a virus clone correct?

I agree that this would not be like vitus. The OG is far too low. Also, the use of any caramel/crystal malts seems unlikely in Vitus considering the FG needs to be low and the yeast provide most of the flavor that is perceived as sweetness. Also, the color is probably too dark. The post is correct about the yeast pitching rate. The key to a good hefe is to underpitch the yeast (somewhere in this thread I mention pitching rates to use). But make sure that the yeast you are using is fresh and in good health. I'm only speculating, but the grain bill for this beer should be simple. The yeast derived flavors are the key to Vitus.

 

[AlrightyThen]

I'm trying out this recipe tonight.

Batch size: 5.5 gal
OG: Need to Recalc

7.0 lb White Wheat Malt
3 lb Belgian Pilsener
4 lb German Vienna
3 oz Melanoidin Malt

1.5 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.4% AA) 60 min
.5 oz Hallertau @ 15 min

Yeast: Weihenstephaner 3068 (with yeast starter for appropriate cell count)
Concluding this needs to be pitched low, I'm using the smack pack with no starter. I'm going to use the full smack pack this attempt.

Mash: 148F 75 min
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: I will pitch around 65F and let it rise to 70-72 to get banana flavors. Cold crash for 2 weeks at 45F, transfer to keg, cold crash an additional week (possibly with a tiny amount of priming sugar), and begin co2 for a week.

 

[slarkin712]

I'm trying out this recipe tonight.

Batch size: 5.5 gal
OG: Need to Recalc

7.0 lb White Wheat Malt
3 lb Belgian Pilsener
4 lb German Vienna
3 oz Melanoidin Malt

1.5 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.4% AA) 60 min
.5 oz Hallertau @ 15 min

Yeast: Weihenstephaner 3068 (with yeast starter for appropriate cell count)
Concluding this needs to be pitched low, I'm using the smack pack with no starter. I'm going to use the full smack pack this attempt.

Mash: 148F 75 min
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: I will pitch around 65F and let it rise to 70-72 to get banana flavors. Cold crash for 2 weeks at 45F, transfer to keg, cold crash an additional week (possibly with a tiny amount of priming sugar), and begin co2 for a week.

You should definitely stick with under-pitching the yeast. Whenever I have made this recipe with the standard ale yeast cell count it has not come out well. I would just get this generic fruity/estery flavor. Standard yeast count for this would be around 265 billion. I would consider using somewhere between 100 and 160 billion cells. I've recently brewed this again and I used one smack pack without a starter. The smack pack was less than a week old, so I knew that the yeast were in good health. This was easily my best attempt at Vitus so far. The finished beer had a moderate amount of banana and a hint of clove. It was very good, but still not quite Vitus. It needs more banana. I fermented at 62F, so I may raise that temp next time and see if I get more banana. In regards to your temperature, you may want to adjust it a little. I've found that temps over 70F do not give you any more banana, but more fruity flavors and not necessarily good. I've also read somewhere that above 68F or 69F there is no more increase in production of isoamyl acetate(i.e. banana flavor). I'd probably shoot for temps between 65 and 68, which is probably what I will use in my next attempt in a few months. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[AlrightyThen]

Definitely agreeing with the lower temperatures and under-pitching. This batch did not turn out the way I was hoping, I'm thinking something went awry in the fermentation as it ended up being fermented around 66-70. I had a blowoff requiring me to split the batch into two buckets due to the intensity of fermentation.

Slarkin712, would you change anything with the recipe?

You should definitely stick with under-pitching the yeast. Whenever I have made this recipe with the standard ale yeast cell count it has not come out well. I would just get this generic fruity/estery flavor. Standard yeast count for this would be around 265 billion. I would consider using somewhere between 100 and 160 billion cells. I've recently brewed this again and I used one smack pack without a starter. The smack pack was less than a week old, so I knew that the yeast were in good health. This was easily my best attempt at Vitus so far. The finished beer had a moderate amount of banana and a hint of clove. It was very good, but still not quite Vitus. It needs more banana. I fermented at 62F, so I may raise that temp next time and see if I get more banana. In regards to your temperature, you may want to adjust it a little. I've found that temps over 70F do not give you any more banana, but more fruity flavors and not necessarily good. I've also read somewhere that above 68F or 69F there is no more increase in production of isoamyl acetate(i.e. banana flavor). I'd probably shoot for temps between 65 and 68, which is probably what I will use in my next attempt in a few months. Let us know how it turns out.