Water Heat-up Time? (Blichmann)

[NectarGuy]

Hello,

Just tested my single tier setup last night. Was extremely surprised how long it too me to heat water. It took close to 2 hours to heat 10 gallons from 60 degrees.

I am using 10" banjo burners with low pressure propane and low pressure orifices and 20 gal blichmann boilermakers. To be honest, the flames look strong and powerful- mainly blue with a little yellow on the tips. I have the kettles 3" above the flame and have to dial the flame down to keep flames from going up the sides of the kettle.

Any ideas or advice would be extremely helpful. Seriously did not expect 2 hours to heat water!

Thanks.

 

[Double-R]

Try this..its for electric but,you might get a idea.
Got to bottom of page.. Electric Heating Element Calculations.
Were it says "Element wattage " add numbers till you match gas burner BTU.
That will be shown under," Element output "
Then fill in the rest.... And see..????




http://manskirtbrewing.com/calcs.shtml

 

[mikescooling]

Can you lift your pot 2-4" to see if the flame's hot spot could be centered on the bottom of your pot? When bringing water to boil, you want to be able to use full power. Me thinks your pot is to low.

Mike

 

[NectarGuy]

For part of the test, I moved the kettle to a lower burner. This got the kettle about 4" above the burner and I was able to use full power. I did not see much of a change in heat acceleration. Is 1 degree/minute common for a low pressure system? I was just expecting to get 10 gallons heated in much less time based on what I have heard from others.

Orifice: http://www.brewershardware.com/Valve-and-LPG-Orifice-for-BURN10.html

Regulator:http://www.brewershardware.com/LPG-regulator-for-11-WC-with-5-hose.html

 

[phoenixs4r]

Try this..its for electric but,you might get a idea.
Got to bottom of page.. Electric Heating Element Calculations.
Were it says "Element wattage " add numbers till you match gas burner BTU.
That will be shown under," Element output "
Then fill in the rest.... And see..????

http://manskirtbrewing.com/calcs.shtml

That won't be accurate. Burners are no where near as efficient as an element.

 

[Golddiggie]

I've found that the actual Blichmann burners perform MUCH better. I've heated just over 8 gallons of water (filtered, so at tap temperature) to my mash-in temp (~160F) in 20-25 minutes (or less, I don't really keep track of the time, but it's more than fast enough). That's with the burner NOT at full blast either.

I would suggest trying the same heat-up on a Blichmann burner before giving up on gas. I had a KAB4 burner before, and even though the elements LOOK the same, the performance is far better with the Blichamnn.

I know that the Blichmann burners cost more, but look at how much extra time you're spending just heating up water. I've also found the Blichmann burners use less propane.

 

[phoenixs4r]

I've found that the actual Blichmann burners perform MUCH better. I've heated just over 8 gallons of water (filtered, so at tap temperature) to my mash-in temp (~160F) in 20-25 minutes (or less, I don't really keep track of the time, but it's more than fast enough). That's with the burner NOT at full blast either.

I would suggest trying the same heat-up on a Blichmann burner before giving up on gas. I had a KAB4 burner before, and even though the elements LOOK the same, the performance is far better with the Blichamnn.

I know that the Blichmann burners cost more, but look at how much extra time you're spending just heating up water. I've also found the Blichmann burners use less propane.

I believe blichmann uses the 10" banjo burner....

 

[Golddiggie]

I believe blichmann uses the 10" banjo burner....

While they may LOOK the same, there's a difference. I don't know if they do anything to the actual element, or if it's what gets connected to it. The KAB4 burner I had before looked identical (element) but performance was far, far different. I'd guestimate that the Blichmann burner performs 2x better (or more) and uses around 1/2 the gas to do it. I've not measured for either of these (hard to since I don't have the KAB4 anymore). I will say that running the Blichmann burner so it was pretty much dead quiet, and my brew-buddy running another burner (not sure the model, but it looks like a smaller version of the element) at what sounded like a jet engine, I was able to get more wort to a boil faster.

 

[phoenixs4r]

Interesting.

 

[Golddiggie]

When I was looking at burners the first time I thought that the Blichmann and the KAB4 would perform the same. I've found this to not be the case though. I picked up my first Blichmann burner so that I'd both have a second burner, AND be able to compare performance. It was no contest at all. I then got my second Blichmann burner and eventually sold the KAB4 to another local brewer that didn't have anything at the time (and was looking at the KAB4).

 

[mikescooling]

Is their any chance that the wind is blowing the flame around? Where dose the flame go when it hits the pot? up and around the pot? Is the pot just above the tips of the flames? If your working outdoors, an easy fix would be to make a wind screen, it would also serve as a flam shroud (like the head of a big blow torch). The shroud would also help for low heat transfer AKA to maintain your boil. Can you give a picture of the flame on the pot?

 

[NectarGuy]

There was no wind when I tested the setup. The flame hits the bottom of the kettle and goes outward. I will take a photo of the flame and post it. It looks a lot like everyone else's flame that I have seen on youtube and such. I mean, if people out there are able to heat 10 gal of water faster than 1 degree/minute then there is something wrong with my setup. Is it too much to expect more than 1 degree/min?

 

[mikescooling]

No, you should heat faster than that. Their is a guy on youtube who puts the 23 jet burner vs the banjo burner (your burner, but higher pressure)

Your burner is only 125,000 btu's vs the high pressure at 210,000 btu's. If your burner is rated for the upgrade, go to high pressure.

 

[NectarGuy]

Is there a chance that the area under the kettle is not vented enough (see photos earlier in this thread)? During the first test flames were coming out from under the frame top. I just did another test and propped the kettle on 1/8" high steel pieces about 1/2 way through the heat up and got better results. Does anyone out there use a similar setup (low pressure banjo burners) and have better results?

 

[Tob]

Are you running this with bottled gas? With my setup when the gas bottle gets low the flames look the same but put out far less heat in the last 60-90 minutes of the gas bottle's life.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

Are you running this with bottled gas? With my setup when the gas bottle gets low the flames look the same but put out far less heat in the last 60-90 minutes of the gas bottle's life.

I just had this happen to me. I was over on volume at 60 min in a 90 min boil... Switched to the backup tank and got a lot more heat after that.

 

[NectarGuy]

Here is a picture of the flame. Not quite full power, otherwise flames would go up the side of the kettle and around the frame. Look normal? Need more venting area for the heat to escape?

 

[mikescooling]

OK, that picture helps. You need some space from the frame and the pot (for draft), your flame is rolling out (IMHO). The flame looks small, but you said it's not turned up all the way.

 

[NectarGuy]

Awesome, great info. How far up do you think it needs to be raised? 1/8"?

Thanks again

 

[mikescooling]

If it were me, I'd take some scrap to use as a shim, and start at about 5/16"-1/2". You need good contact with the burner flame on high and low, so don't forget to maintain a boil.

 

[mccabedoug]

The problem is the 4+ inches between the burner and the pot. Read this thread.

I reduced that distance (or I should say a local welding shop did) from > 4 inches to about an inch (my post & mod pics are on page 3 of that thread) and I saw a HUGE reduction in heating time and fuel consumption.

With my current setup, and a 30 psi regulator, I feel I actually use less propane than when I used my turkey fryer. I can maintain a boil with the tiniest of flames. Move the burner closer to the pot and see what happens.

 

[mariojr]

The problem is the 4+ inches between the burner and the pot. Read this thread.

I reduced that distance (or I should say a local welding shop did) from > 4 inches to about an inch (my post & mod pics are on page 3 of that thread) and I saw a HUGE reduction in heating time and fuel consumption.

With my current setup, and a 30 psi regulator, I feel I actually use less propane than when I used my turkey fryer. I can maintain a boil with the tiniest of flames. Move the burner closer to the pot and see what happens.

I think moving it closer is a step in the right direction. From the picture it looks like the hottest part of the flame is far from the bottom of your pot.

 

[IrregularPulse]

My first thought was distacn e too. That looks way farther away than my turkey fryer setup and it takes maybe 30-40 minutes from hose water to 170-180l. That's with 8-10G. Maybe an hour for 13G when doing 10G batches.

 

[mccabedoug]

Awesome, great info. How far up do you think it needs to be raised? 1/8"?

Thanks again

Way more than an 1/8". I would move it up as close as you can get it to the bottom of your pot. As you can see in the photo of the above mentioned thread, my KAB4 is little more than an inch away from the bottom of the pot.

 

[NectarGuy]

Ok. Will try another test run today. Previously I tested with the burner about 1.5" below the burner and on full power flames were really blowin up the side of the kettle. Maybe once I raise the kettle off the frame a little bit this will subside? I will try raising the burner and raising the kettle today.

 

[NectarGuy]

Way more than an 1/8". I would move it up as close as you can get it to the bottom of your pot. As you can see in the photo of the above mentioned thread, my KAB4 is little more than an inch away from the bottom of the pot.

I was asking about how hight to raise the kettle off the frame surface for venting. I am going to raise the burner a couple inches I suppose.

 

[NectarGuy]

Ok. Did another test run today with 1/4" shims under the kettle. 10 gallons from 70 to boil in 45 min. Getting better. Is this probably what I should expect with a low pressure system? I still cant get to full power, flames go up the sides of the kettle. I got to 80% or so.

 

[mikescooling]

You may be getting to much air into the burner. I run my 210K Btu burner with only 1/4 of the air intake open, Just something to try.