Warm Conditioning A Lager

[Tyler.W]

I am planning to brew my first lager, a maibock, soon. I will be brewing this with a true lager yeast, not a pseudo-lager fermentation. I have temperature control and will be kegging this beer, but unfortunately I do not have the space to keep the beer refrigerated while conditioning/lagering.

Am I able to brew the beer, do a closed transfer to a purged keg, let it condition for however long I can wait, and the hook it up to CO2 and enjoy as usual? Do you have any other suggestions of ways I can brew lagers without refrigeration for true lagering? I am not overly fond of the idea of a pseudo lager with ale yeast. Yes, I know it is doable but I like the idea of brewing a true lager (at least this time).

Thanks!

 

[@RoyalGallon]

I don’t know where in the world you are but - assuming Northern hemisphere - as it’s winter can you lager the keg outside?

How’s the weather?

 

[ba-brewer]

Having your beer sit warm will not be an ideal situation. If I could not keep it cold I would pick a different style.

You will also need to keep it on pressure until the beer carbonation level stabilizes.

 

[danimal92sport]

Have you checked out the Warm Fermented Lager thread?

Warm Fermented Lager Thread

 

[Tyler.W]

I don’t know where in the world you are but - assuming Northern hemisphere - as it’s winter can you lager the keg outside?

How’s the weather?

I am in Tennessee. I don't think we have consistent enough weather to condition the beer outside.

Having your beer sit warm will not be an ideal situation. If I could not keep it cold I would pick a different style.

You will also need to keep it on pressure until the beer carbonation level stabilizes.

Could I carbonate it and then condition? Or condition warm and then carbonate?

I assume the warm conditioning isn't ideal mainly due to oxidization? If I do a fully closed transfer, does that help anything? Also, since this beer will be over 7% abv, would that help with the stability/ability to stand up to warm conditioning?

Also, what is the actual recommended amount of time to lager? I know there are varying schools of thought, but if I could brew the beer, keg it, carbonate it (1-2 weeks in the kegerator), and then keep it in my fermentation fridge (cold) for a few weeks this could work. I would have to do some planning to ensure my brew schedules work out with this, but it seems like a possibility if I do not have to lager for months and months.

Warm Fermented Lager Thread

Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[ba-brewer]

A closed transfer will help stability of your beer but beer goes stale over time. Getting your beer cold delays staling, extended time sitting warm will speed up staling. Once I get my beer cold I like to keep it that way.

I recall seeing something about different lager times vs ABV, but I just go by when it tastes good. For me that is like 6 to 8week for a 5%ish beer. Some beers taste good before then but I plan ahead and have room to lager beer. You are the consumer drink it when you like it.

If you dont have room to keep kegs consistently cold, maybe bottle it and lager what you can squeeze in the kegerator with your other beer. Another option would be to naturally carbonate in the keg then put back into the ferment chamber at lager temp as long as you can before moving to the kegerator.

 

[McKnuckle]

Lagering is cold storage by definition. With the exception of time spent carbonating warm, if you choose to do that naturally (vs. forced carb), once fermented and rested slightly warm for a couple of days, these beers need consistent cold for a period of weeks. The slow clearing and conditioning in the cold are literally what make lager styles shine.

This being said, the process does not require months. I have found that 3 weeks in the cold produces 80% of the joy. From that period forward, assuming you have not introduced oxygen to gradually stale the beer, it should last a couple of months longer before starting to slightly level and then eventually taper off.

 

[Tyler.W]

Thanks for the insight.

I think I'll actually be able to make this work in my fermentation chamber! I don't drink through my kegs too quickly, so as long as I plan it right I should have 4-6 weeks before kicking a keg, which should give me enough time to brew, ferment, and carbonate/condition the beer. I just need to run a CO2 line into my fermentation chamber which will allow me to carbonate and condition at the same time.

I know typically it is recommended that you cold crash before kegging to remove some particulate, but can I just keg right after fermentation and do everything else in the keg? Will the extra trub and time on the trub affect the beer greatly? I would imagine most of the particulate would fall out after fermentation and, since it is not a hoppy beer, there wouldn't be too much left to accumulate in the keg? I ask this because I have my fermentation vessel connected directly to the keg, which pushes sanitizer out of the keg to purge it, so there is zero (hypothetically) oxygen ingress after I pitch the yeast and close the container up. I'd rather not introduce oxygen, especially since the beer will be sitting around for 1-2 months before being consumed.

 

[danimal92sport]

McKnuckle and ba-brewer, do either of you prefer to fine with gelatin or other for your lagers?

 

[ba-brewer]

@Tyler.W, I dont cold crash, once I get stable gravity (8-10days for my beers) I move to a keg then cold condition and carbonate at the same time. The beer has a slight haze but that does not turn to too much in the keg, most yeast is already dropped and starting to compact.

Sounds like you have a good system/plan started for limiting oxygen.

McKnuckle and ba-brewer, do either of you prefer to fine with gelatin or other for your lagers?

I use whirfloc in the kettle and normally nothing in the keg just time and gravity. I have used gelatin in the past but don't use it much any more, one exception is when I make a kolsch with wy2565 and run out of patience.

 

[McKnuckle]

I do the same as @ba-brewer in all aspects as above. I don't use a distinct cold crash phase, I just transfer to a keg after stable gravity and a couple days warm conditioning, and put it in serving position. Some of my lagers get spunded at the end of primary, some get primed and naturally carbonated with speise (reserved unfermented wort), and others get force carbed. Depends on my whim.

I don't fine any of my beers except for Whirlfloc in the boil. I've done it in the past, but prefer to just let things take their time. I'm never in a rush to drink something, because I always have too many beers to choose from anyway.

 

[ba-brewer]

Hey you just reminded me. Thanks @McKnuckle. I am give a speise a shot after reading one of your recent posts.

Getting a good whiff of the gelatin jar after heating in the microwave is one a reason I dont use it much. I dont get that smell in my beer but I sure dont like the smell. I am sure that is what help fuel the gelatin is made from hooves comes from.

 

[pfmeyer]

Check out Brülosophy.com for an article on warm fermentation of lager beer.

 

[Beermeister32]

There is a lot of good info here and you have several options. If you are going to force carbonate the keg, that would be optimal, try to fit it in your refrigerator and keep it cold the entire time.

If you are going to warm condition, add your dextrose to the keg at transfer time (usually about 4.3 ounces for most styles.) You can let the keg sit on the floor of your house in a cooler spot for several weeks while it carbonates, just like you were conditioning bottles.

For lagering, first you do have a big beer there which will take time to lager. Usually 3 months for most lagers, 6 months for big lagers like Oktoberfests and your Maibock. Yes you can drink them sooner, but they need the cold conditioning time for their best flavor. Force yourself to find a small refrigerator on Craigs list. You need some storage capacity if you plan on lagering. It is a real improvement to your beer.

Keep in mind even commercial brewers would lager for 3 months for light lagers. A lot of that has changed, but that is traditionally how it was done. I lager at 34F for 3 months for most styles.

 

[Tyler.W]

Thanks for the suggestions. I might have to find another fridge, but I am not sure if it will be possible. I am already rocking two mini-fridges in the garage and I don't think wifey would be too fond of a third. I may just need to move to a keezer at some point so I have room for a few other kegs or sacrifice my seltzer water keg so I have a dedicated lager spot.

Another possible idea I am tossing around is keeping my two beer kegs and my seltzer keg, but while I am lagering certain beers I just bottle off the keg for a few batches so that I have the space for my lager to properly lager. I typically try to have a hoppy beer and a less hoppy and/or darker beer, so I would keep a keg of my lager, a keg of the hoppy beer, and then some bottles of whatever else I have at the time. I moved to kegs to allow me to remove oxygen from my process, but as long as I bottle cold and keep the beers refrigerated I shouldn't notice oxidation within the 4-6 weeks it'll take me to drink them, right?

 

[Beermeister32]

You will probably be OK. Here are a couple photos from the old Olympia Brewery. As you can see they were running 90 days at the time, and blending over 100 batches for consistency. Once I wrapped my head around the fact that lagering is better, my beers really improved. Of course you can draw off samples the whole time they are lagering to check the progress. Cheers!

 

[Dland]

^^^ kind of funny,,,,,in a good way. Books are good,,,. anyway;

I crash lagers to 30F and wait at least 3 weeks, but of course the brewer is allowed to taste samples early and often. Sometimes a fresh lager(more like after two weeks crashed than one) can be inspirational in favor, (well my beers anyway). Still, they seem to get better & better if let to lager for a while, or longer.

Warm fermented "lagers" can be great beer, if done well. Not so sure about warm conditioned. Probably will turn out good if made well, but will likely not have some lager qualities.

Have to qualify, definition of warm lagering for this is between 40-65F. Over that temp, pretty sure results will decline more, not sayin I wouldn't drink it though.

 

[Vale71]

That info is from the previous century, right? 90 days turnaround for a light lager would drive you to bankruptcy in no time in today's market. Warm fermentation and warm conditioning are standard nowadays with turnaround times as short as 15 days.

The "blend of 100 different brews" is pure marketing poppycock, there is really no point in blending so many different batches. It also would mean that you'd need at least 100 different maturation tanks filled at any given time which is completely unrealistic.

 

[Beermeister32]

Yes, as I said it was they used to do it and obviously old methods. Lots of ways to make beer.

My family used to work there, and that is taken from a published annual report.

Here's a picture of the main building that they used, it was full of those conditioning tanks. The building was insulated and held at a constant temperature. It would take multiple batches to fill the tanks, then cross blending the product in the tanks would get you to those published numbers.

 

[Vale71]

Sure, if you count combining batches in the primary tanks for capacity reasons as "blending" you can get higher numbers but I bet it was nowhere close to 100. In my experience you should take any marketing claim and divide it by at least 5 and you might still be a long way from the actual reality but maybe I'm just mistrustful.
In any case it's really sad to see the operation lying in ruins today.

 

[Beermeister32]

I used to take the brewery tour as a kid, it was a lot of fun and very interesting. It is so sad to see these breweries, once the pride of a community, abandoned and in ruins.

I don't believe they ever ran the 100 brew comment in advertising. It was a note in the annual report indicating that in every glass you could conceivably have product from up to 100 batches. I'm sure they were counting all those operations along the way.