VERY quick starter question.... help!

[luckybeagle]

I have 2 Wyeast packets of 1214 Belgian Abbey for a Quadrupel I'm hoping to do tomorrow. The packets are 1 and 2 months old. OG will be 1.090. I need to make a starter, but the yeast pitch calculators are calling for 3.5 - 4 liters based on yeast viability! Isn't that too much to add to a 5 gallon batch?

Should I do a 2 liter starter today from both packets, decant, and step up with another 2 liters in a couple days? Or can I make the whole 4 liters today and (hopefully) decant and pitch in ~36 hours? OR should I skip decanting altogether?

I also bought wine nutrient instead of yeast nutrient on accident... should I add that to the boiling DME or just leave it out?

Thanks

 

[day_trippr]

Using the Brewer's Friend calculator (brought to us by the conglomerate that owns Home Brew Talk ) if I plug 2 packs at an average age of 6 weeks in, select the "Pro Brewer" 1M cells/ml/°P rate, set the volume to 5.5 gallons and the OG to 1.090, and finally use the Chris White shaken starter algorithm, it does indeed suggest a 4L starter.

I'm a big fan of clean, thorough fermentations. I'd go with the 4L starter...

Cheers!

 

[Stand]

Belgian beers are frequently pitched at lower rates than most.

There are other things you can do to make up for lower pitching rates. They aren't perfect, but aeration, yeast nutrient, temp control, etc. will all make up for lower pitching rates to some degree.

I would make a 2L starter and let it go.

Have a stir plate?

 

[luckybeagle]

Using the Brewer's Friend calculator (brought to us by the conglomerate that owns Home Brew Talk ) if I plug 2 packs at an average age of 6 weeks in, select the "Pro Brewer" 1M cells/ml/°P rate, set the volume to 5.5 gallons and the OG to 1.090, and finally use the Chris White shaken starter algorithm, it does indeed suggest a 4L starter.

I'm a big fan of clean, thorough fermentations. I'd go with the 4L starter...

Cheers!

Thanks kindly! Would you worry about decanting or just do the whole thing at once at high krausen?

Stand: Nope, no stir plate unfortunately. But I can get a good shake in each hour, most hours of the day.

 

[day_trippr]

I always crash and decant. I frequently do 5 liter starters (to leave enough to bank) which even if split between halves of a ten gallon batch would still be a lot of spent starter beer in the product...

Cheers!

 

[Stand]

Since you don't have a stir-plate, I agree on the bigger starter. If you can crash it go for it, but belgians don't tend to flocculate very well. I would worry about getting enough yeast if you try to decant.

I haven't used that strain, but I've used WLP500 which is supposed to be the WL equivalent (Chimay strain), and at least the White Labs version is really tough to get to drop.

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks guys. Hmm... I'm not really sure what to do at this point. Sorry If I'm missing something. I ended up adding more boiled and cooled water + dme to get up to 4 liters (split between two sanitized milk jugs). They are bubbling away this morning. I was hoping to brew tonight but that doesn't sound like a possibility.

What I'm hearing is that 4L is a lot of starter for a relatively small batch, and that (crashing and) decanting may not work well with this yeast strain. And if I do attempt to crash and decant, I might be pouring out some of the yeast, somewhat defeating the purpose (especially if it doesn't flocculate enough in this short of a time). I guess I was super spoiled with my last 4-5 Belgians that I brewed with the super high flocculating WY3522 Ardennes strain.

With a target OG of 1.090, and one gallon of starter into a 5 gallon batch, it'll take my OG down to 1.080 or lower.

This batch requires 408 billion yeast cells. I do have a few ounces of DME left over from making up these starters, and also a few ounces of D-90 from a Dubbel I brewed. Maybe these can be added to the starters after they ferment out to bump up total yeast cell count? My LHBS does not have any more 1214 packets (I bought the last two, and they were on the "older" side).

Do I just need to be patient and plan on brewing this one a week or more out (to allow time to ferment, crash, decant each starter)?

 

[Jag75]

Could you only put in 4 gallons into your fermenter then add all the contents of the starter , giving you a big enough starter and not diluting your beer too much?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Thanks guys. Hmm... I'm not really sure what to do at this point. Sorry If I'm missing something. I ended up adding more boiled and cooled water + dme to get up to 4 liters (split between two sanitized milk jugs). They are bubbling away this morning. I was hoping to brew tonight but that doesn't sound like a possibility.

What I'm hearing is that 4L is a lot of starter for a relatively small batch, and that (crashing and) decanting may not work well with this yeast strain. And if I do attempt to crash and decant, I might be pouring out some of the yeast, somewhat defeating the purpose (especially if it doesn't flocculate enough in this short of a time). I guess I was super spoiled with my last 4-5 Belgians that I brewed with the super high flocculating WY3522 Ardennes strain.

With a target OG of 1.090, and one gallon of starter into a 5 gallon batch, it'll take my OG down to 1.080 or lower.

This batch requires 408 billion yeast cells. I do have a few ounces of DME left over from making up these starters, and also a few ounces of D-90 from a Dubbel I brewed. Maybe these can be added to the starters after they ferment out to bump up total yeast cell count? My LHBS does not have any more 1214 packets (I bought the last two, and they were on the "older" side).

Do I just need to be patient and plan on brewing this one a week or more out (to allow time to ferment, crash, decant each starter)?

I would be patient and crash and decant. Fwiw I generally make my starter a week in advance to have enough time to fully let it settle out and decant as much as possible. After giving it a few days in the fridge I can decant 4.5 litres of clear starter wort and only pitch .5litres of starter wort/yeast. Cheers

 

[luckybeagle]

Thanks Blazin. Wondering if this changes your (or anyone else's) opinion:

I pulled up the Mr Malty calculator and plugged in my OG (1.090), batch size (5g) and a conservative date for yeast production -- one packet was produced 3/31 and the other 4/30, split the difference.

I'm sure this calculator is basing it on the standard "Ale" pitch rate of 0.75 instead of the high gravity ale rate of 1.0. But since it is a Belgian style Quad, which should have some fruity esters naturally (and as Stand said, can be pitched on the low side), maybe pitching the standard ale concentration is good enough?


Another thought I had was to up my adjuncts from this:

• 1 lb D-180 Belgian Dark Candisyrup
• 1 lb Blackstrap Molasses

To this:

• 1 lb D-180 Belgian Extra Dark Candisyrup
• 1.5 lb Blackstrap molasses
• 4 oz D-90 Belgian Dark Candisyrup

This should get me 5 points higher on my OG (to 1.095). If I pitch a 2L starter without decanting, it'll drop me down to 1.090 if I average out the gravity against the starter's gravity, which is my target that I'm hung up on for some reason.

Brulosophy has a good article about pitching a 3.1L starter, undecanted vs a decanted 300ml starter, here: http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/10/decanted-vs-full-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

In a nutshell, his FG finished 1.001 lower in the un-decanted batch, but a statistically insignificant number of blind taste testers could even tell a difference. However it wasn't a big, dark beer--not sure if it becomes more or less apparent based on style differences.

It really just comes down to me being wildly impatient but... Is my logic of increasing the adjuncts sound in order to raise my OG to offset the dilution, or is 1.5# of blackstrap just a crazy amount? I could swap out that extra half pound for brown sugar instead....

 

[CascadesBrewer]

This thread seems pretty complex for just being about starters!

Maybe I am a bad brewer, but I don't pay much attention to the specifics of yeast calculators. My gut says that 2 fairly fresh packs of yeast into a 5 gal batch of 1.090 well aerated wort would be an underpitch but would work (especially since underpitching is often a strategy for Belgian beers). I probably would have made a starter the day before in my 1L flask and pitched that. Or I would have brewed a Dubbel (or whatever) and pitched yeast harvested from that batch.

 

[luckybeagle]

This thread seems pretty complex for just being about starters!

I know! It got way intricate, way quickly, lol. If only I could change the title of the thread .

I just brewed a Dubbel using WY3522 Ardennes using slurry, which turned out fantastic, but I tossed the slurry afterwards in favor of trying the WY1214 (I've brewed 2 tripels, 2 blondes, and the dubbel on that original packet after making and splitting starters, pitching slurry, etc). It was great at attenuating, too--I achieved around 86% on each beer, and dropped super clear without cold crashing or finings. I'm making the connection now that I've always brewed lower gravity beers using 1-2L starters, and big beers using slurry from those batches. Dang it!

I've now got two milk jugs with 2L of starter + one packet of WY1214 in each of them. They've been going for about 36 hours now and seem to be finishing up. I'll throw them in the fridge tonight, decant in a few days as best as I can, and just brew the dang thing already. Next time I'll do what I've accidentally done in the past -- brew a lighter beer and save the slurry.

 

[hottpeper13]

I never decant a starter! If a beer needs more then 1.5L I make a small beer and pitch the cake,and then enjoy the small beer while waiting for the monster to condition(mostly in a barrel). I'm just gonna say VITALITY starters!

 

[luckybeagle]

Hottpeper: I usually dump the starter in whole, too--but the volume would be about 18% of my beer if I didn't decant, which I feel is just too much (lower gravity) liquid for a 1.090 OG beer. I like your suggestion on the vitality starter, and in using slurry, though. If I had ingredients for a smaller beer on hand, I would totally do that.

I think I'm going to brew this batch and just wait for the starter to drop more clear before I pitch. It'll take me some time to get it down to pitching temp (ground water is warm, pitching temp is 62F for this recipe), so it'll probably sit in my fermentation chamber overnight before I dump in my starter. Starter is currently cold crashing in the fridge after about 60 hours in the milk jugs with intermittent shaking. In the 6 hours it's been crashing, I can see it starting to settle, so hopefully a full 24 hours does the trick. Depending on how clear it is during the brew, I'll pull some wort for a vitality starter. Worst-case scenario I can freeze that wort collection for a future starter in place of DME?

 

[day_trippr]

Did you actually run a starter for 60 hours?
Realizing the amount of yeast generated is sufficient for a big batch of big beer those same yeast were probably done within the first 12 hours...

 

[Stand]

At the end of the day you are going to make good beer regardless.

I agree by and large with best practices, but if you drop only one best practice you will still be fine.

Just don't drop them all at once and put your foot in the fermenter and you are golden. Brew on friend!

 

[luckybeagle]

LOL!

I had them going in the milk jugs with intermittent shaking for about 2 and a half days, hence 60 hours, haha. I heard the 1214 strain is a slow chugger and I didn't want to fridge/crash it if there was still a lot of fermentation activity, but that's good to know that it happens a bit more quickly than I was assuming.

I've got the grains mashing right now! I'll update this thread on how it goes.

 

[luckybeagle]

Brew day was a success! Hit mash temp, preboil gravity target and OG perfectly, not a degree or a point off. Batch has been chilled down to pitching temperature, 62F. Starter has been crashing for 24 hours now, and this is as far as it has gotten... Can i decant the thinner stuff on the top and pitch about half of what's here, including the sludge on the bottom? OR should I just wait another day to let it settle out more before pitching? I currently have a gallon of starter that I want to get down to at least 1.5 liters (ideally less since I ended up with 4.2g in the carboy) before pitching.

Should I wait or decant half and pitch now?

 

[luckybeagle]

to the top.... Decant as much as possible and pitch the gunk on the bottom + a little liquid, or wait?

 

[Blazinlow86]

to the top.... Decant as much as possible and pitch the gunk on the bottom + a little liquid, or wait?

I'd wait or pitch the whole thing. Theres still quite abit of yeast that hasn't settled imho. Cheers

 

[Horseflesh]

There is a huge amount of yeast still in solution. If you feel like your sanitation is good enough to wait, I would wait another day and decant as much starter wort as possible, then pitch the rest.

Times like this, I wish I had a centrifuge!

 

[Stand]

I switched to the WLP530 strain for that very reason.

 

[luckybeagle]

Dang, I think I saw these posts about 5 minutes too late.

Alright so my impatient self ended up decanting about 2.5 liters away from these starters into separate sanitized jars. Those jars are now in the fridge. I just pitched what was left over (hazy beer and slurry). I poked around on the interwebs and saw that some other people suggested decanting after 18-36 hours (I'm at 36ish) even if it looks turbid, since most of the yeast settles to the bottom and the "poor flocculators" are the cells that end up staying in solution longer. Not sure how much truth is in this, though.

I ended up pitching about 1.5L in total, which amounted to about 8% of my total wort volume. Most of the starter I decanted was clear-ish--I stopped decanting when the starter got noticeably hazy.

Shook the absolute devil out of the carboy before pitching--and I'm sure I'm going to feel it come tomorrow morning.

I thought this was a decent approach since the clear-ish runoffs are now decanting further in the fridge, which I can pitch tomorrow or the next day if needed?

Hope I didn't screw it up.

 

[Horseflesh]

All I can say for sure is, you're going to make beer. Take notes for next time. Let us know what happens!

 

[luckybeagle]

I've never brewed a beer with White Labs, but I've been curious. Seems like a lot more recipes call for WLP (in the belgian/candisyrup.com world, at least) than Wyeast. Pretty sure my LHBS carries it, too. I know I said it earlier, but I'm really wishing I pitched WY3522 Ardennes. I've been so pleased with that strain in blondes, dubbels, and tripels. Just cracked a Blonde tonight that I've had in my fridge for 2 weeks, brewed with that strain. Beautifully clear, and well-balanced. I should've run the full Belgian gamut and finished off the Trappist series with the same yeast.

If the 1214 is similar to the WLP530 but is a higher flocculator, I'm definitely interested after this experience.

 

[lowtones84]

This thread seems pretty complex for just being about starters!

Maybe I am a bad brewer, but I don't pay much attention to the specifics of yeast calculators. My gut says that 2 fairly fresh packs of yeast into a 5 gal batch of 1.090 well aerated wort would be an underpitch but would work (especially since underpitching is often a strategy for Belgian beers). I probably would have made a starter the day before in my 1L flask and pitched that. Or I would have brewed a Dubbel (or whatever) and pitched yeast harvested from that batch.

Agree with this. I would have probably just made a 1.5-2L starter and pitched it, but let us know how your's comes out. I pretty much never go over 1L unless I'm brewing something as big as you are and never have problems and quick, clean fermentations.

Starter the night before, stir plate if possible. Aerate well, yeast nutrient if you have it, pitch whole starter. Many factors are just as important, if not more, than cell count. Chris White from Whitelabs said this himself. If your yeast is ready to rip, they will reproduce pretty darn quickly and get to work.

But, "There are many ways to skin a cat" as the saying goes. Not putting down anyone else's method.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

If the 1214 is similar to the WLP530 but is a higher flocculator, I'm definitely interested after this experience.

There is a lot of overlap between Wyeast and White Labs. Most of the time it comes down to which packaging you like or how fresh they get to your local store. This site has charts showing the similar strains: http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm

I have limited experience with WLP500 and WLP530. Just one split batch of Dubbel that I bottled 2 weeks ago. I underpitched and both were slow to start, but the WLP500 finished and settled faster than the WLP530 batch (though the WLP530 batch attenuated more and my underpitching may have impacted the fermentations). The beers are too young to really evaluate flavor, but so far they seem very similar. I have a Belgian Pale Ale fermenting now with WLP500.