Various noob questions

[rigatron]

Hey all,

I'm fairly new to brewing. I've brewed maybe 7 batches with the help of friends. Most of our beers come out pretty nice, but my friends are a little bit more optimistic about some of the others than me. I have a few questions about the process we're using, specifically about temperatures and the fermentation process.

1. We've been using 160 degrees Fahrenheit for our strike water and sparge water temperature. Is this appropriate?

2. We've been letting our grains steep for an hour, regardless of the type of beer or even the amount of a grain. We recently created a new brew set up, and are brewing 10 gallons at a time. I've just been multiplying recipes' ingredients list by 2, but we let the grains steep for the same amount of time. Is this fine?

3. When recipes call to put in hops at various points in the boil, when the hops are put in closer to the completion of the boil (60 mins in our case) does that increase the amount of bitterness or hop flavor that those would contribute to the final product, or is it less so? How is the time that you're pitching the hops related to what flavors will be contributed?

4. For the fermentation process, how important is it to regulate the temperature closely (with any type of beer). For example, we have a SMaSH belgian saison fermenting in a basement right now, being held steady at about 70-75 degrees Fahrenheit. Is this appropriate for this type of beer?

5. Also regarding the fermentation process. Should all beers be allowed to reach their ultimate final gravity? In other words, is it sometimes appropriate to keg up your beer while the final gravity is still changing? How much would it hurt your beer to allow it to sit in the fermenter after it has reached it's final gravity, and the process has been complete? I feel like this has greatly hurt some of our beers, but my friend doesn't think it matters. He wants to ferment for a month everytime, and I want to monitor the FG and simply keg up after it stops changing.

Sorry for the long winded post. Any insight into any of these issues would be appreciated.

Cheers

 

[unionrdr]

1) 160F is ok,but 168 or so would be better for sparge water temp.
2) Steeping or mashing for an hour is ok. Steeping for even 30 minutes is fine,but mashing must be at least an hour.
3) Any hop additions at the begining of a 60 minute boil are for bittering. Additions from,say 20 minutes down to 10 minutes left are for flavor. 5 minutes or less are for aroma,as is dry hoping. additions from 30 to 25 minutes will still give a little bittering & a bit less flavor.
4) The beer's fermentation temp should be in the particular yeast's ideal range. Simple.
5) The beer should ALWAYS be allowed to reach a stable FG before racking anywhere. And leaving it in primary to let it clean up any by products & settle out clear or slightly misty is a good habit as well.

 

[Captain Damage]

If I could expand on Uniondr's response to 5 a little:

Beer is always "fermented out," i.e., allowed to ferment until it stops fermenting completely on it's own. While in principle there are things you could do to stop fermentation at a particular point, as is sometimes done with wine, in practice this is pretty much never done (it would require filtering and/or heat-treating and/or an additive such as potassium metabisulfite). You don't want to bottle or keg a beer that is still fermenting - you could get bottle bombs or a keg pressure high enough to paint your walls.

The "traditional" directions say to get your beer off the yeast and into a secondary or into bottles as soon as terminal gravity is reached. These directions come from a time when the quality and health of brewing yeast available to homebrewers was pretty poor. Extended contact with this unhealthy yeast could lead to ruined beer, so the safest advice was to move the beer quickly. Hence the "ferment for 7 days" instructions.

In just the past couple of years, many of us have found that leaving the beer on the yeast for an extra 1-3 weeks is not only not bad for the beer, but is actually beneficial, as the yeast continue to clean up some off-flavors produced during the active phases of fermentation. Additionally, yeast and other particulates will continue to drop out of suspension leading to less trub in your bottles and kegs. Finally, the yeast cake at the bottom of your fermenter will become more compact making clean racking easier and actually giving you a little bit more beer to bottle/keg.

 

[unionrdr]

Yup. Patience is really a virtue in home brewing. Give the yeasties the time they need to complete the job right. Initial fermentation-FG-clean up & clear up. Then proceed.

 

[rigatron]

If I could expand on Uniondr's response to 5 a little:

Beer is always "fermented out," i.e., allowed to ferment until it stops fermenting completely on it's own. While in principle there are things you could do to stop fermentation at a particular point, as is sometimes done with wine, in practice this is pretty much never done (it would require filtering and/or heat-treating and/or an additive such as potassium metabisulfite). You don't want to bottle or keg a beer that is still fermenting - you could get bottle bombs or a keg pressure high enough to paint your walls.

The "traditional" directions say to get your beer off the yeast and into a secondary or into bottles as soon as terminal gravity is reached. These directions come from a time when the quality and health of brewing yeast available to homebrewers was pretty poor. Extended contact with this unhealthy yeast could lead to ruined beer, so the safest advice was to move the beer quickly. Hence the "ferment for 7 days" instructions.

In just the past couple of years, many of us have found that leaving the beer on the yeast for an extra 1-3 weeks is not only not bad for the beer, but is actually beneficial, as the yeast continue to clean up some off-flavors produced during the active phases of fermentation. Additionally, yeast and other particulates will continue to drop out of suspension leading to less trub in your bottles and kegs. Finally, the yeast cake at the bottom of your fermenter will become more compact making clean racking easier and actually giving you a little bit more beer to bottle/keg.

Awesome. Thank you.

As a final question, is leaving StarSan on your brewing equipment fine? My friends insist that it doesnt matter and that it wont hurt the beer at all, and I just read something on the forum which seemed to agree with that, however that seems wrong. Why wouldnt you want to rinse off all those chemicals, and not having them in your beer?

Just because something is food safe doesnt mean it will taste good.

 

[rigatron]

1) 160F is ok,but 168 or so would be better for sparge water temp.
2) Steeping or mashing for an hour is ok. Steeping for even 30 minutes is fine,but mashing must be at least an hour.
3) Any hop additions at the begining of a 60 minute boil are for bittering. Additions from,say 20 minutes down to 10 minutes left are for flavor. 5 minutes or less are for aroma,as is dry hoping. additions from 30 to 25 minutes will still give a little bittering & a bit less flavor.
4) The beer's fermentation temp should be in the particular yeast's ideal range. Simple.
5) The beer should ALWAYS be allowed to reach a stable FG before racking anywhere. And leaving it in primary to let it clean up any by products & settle out clear or slightly misty is a good habit as well.

What is the difference for steeping and mashing for you? They seem like they should be used interchangably.

 

[Komocabo]

StarSan is fine to leave on equipment. It breaks down to yeast nutrients, essentially. I'm not saying to put a gallon of it in your beer (that would be bad), but a small amount is not a problem. Bubbles are ok

 

[Captain Damage]

StarSan is an acid sanitizer, meaning it depends on it's low pH to kill microbes. It is mostly phosphoric acid, which is an additive used in sodas (after you taste it, you'll recognize the phosphoric acid note every time you taste soda). When it's diluted the pH rises to a level where it no longer kills microbes, and in fact the yeast can use it as a source of phosphorus which is an essential nutrient.

StarSan also has a foaming agent. Don't fear the foam! If there's a lot of foam in your carboy or bottle and you start filling it with beer, the beer displaces the foam. StarSan only kills microbes while it's wet, and the foam helps keep it from drying out prematurely.

 

[Captain Damage]

The difference between mashing and steeping can sound subtle, but it's a pretty important distinction. With steeping, you're essentially making a tea from the grains, extracting color and flavor, and dissolving the sugar present in caramel/crystal malts. While some brewers will instruct you to keep a very specific temperature when steeping, the truth is it's not that important. Keep your steeping water "hot, but not too hot" and you'll be fine. The not-too-hot part means keep it below 170F since you could extract tannin from the grain husks, leading to bitter, astringent tastes. That said, working to maintain a specific steeping temperature is good practice for when you eventually move up to partial mash and/or all grain, which virtually every brewer does eventually.

Mashing is the process of converting the grain starches to sugar. This is done by mixing the grain with hot water and holding a specific temperature steady for an extended time, usually about 1 hour. The temperature is usually in the 148F-156F range. What this does is cause the enzymes present in the grain to break the starch down into sugar. By using a slightly different temperature you vary the relative proportions of the two enzymes present, which allows you to control the fermentability of the wort and thereby control the body and sweetness of the finished beer.

Most of the grains used in steeping are kilned to a degree that destroys the enzymes, so trying to mash them would be no different from an extra long steep. Certain adjunct grains, most notably flaked grains such as oatmeal and flaked barley, need to be mashed, or you'll just be adding starch to your beer. To do this, combine the flaked grains with an equal amount of crushed 2-row malt and hold at 152F for 30 minutes. That's called a mini mash or partial mash.

 

[unionrdr]

Even partial mash is still done for 1 hour or even 90 minutes,depending on how well modified the grains are. Steeping is done for 30 minutes.
Any kind of mashing uses 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound of grains. 147-156F is a good temp range. Darker beers are better at the higher end of the temp range,ime. And partial mash uses the same grains as AG,just less by weight of them.

 

[rigatron]

The difference between mashing and steeping can sound subtle, but it's a pretty important distinction. With steeping, you're essentially making a tea from the grains, extracting color and flavor, and dissolving the sugar present in caramel/crystal malts. While some brewers will instruct you to keep a very specific temperature when steeping, the truth is it's not that important. Keep your steeping water "hot, but not too hot" and you'll be fine. The not-too-hot part means keep it below 170F since you could extract tannin from the grain husks, leading to bitter, astringent tastes. That said, working to maintain a specific steeping temperature is good practice for when you eventually move up to partial mash and/or all grain, which virtually every brewer does eventually.

Mashing is the process of converting the grain starches to sugar. This is done by mixing the grain with hot water and holding a specific temperature steady for an extended time, usually about 1 hour. The temperature is usually in the 148F-156F range. What this does is cause the enzymes present in the grain to break the starch down into sugar. By using a slightly different temperature you vary the relative proportions of the two enzymes present, which allows you to control the fermentability of the wort and thereby control the body and sweetness of the finished beer.

Most of the grains used in steeping are kilned to a degree that destroys the enzymes, so trying to mash them would be no different from an extra long steep. Certain adjunct grains, most notably flaked grains such as oatmeal and flaked barley, need to be mashed, or you'll just be adding starch to your beer. To do this, combine the flaked grains with an equal amount of crushed 2-row malt and hold at 152F for 30 minutes. That's called a mini mash or partial mash.

So steeping is putting all your grains in water just below 170F for an hourish. Mashing is when you put your grains between 147-156F, which produces two key enzymes at different rates proportional to the mash temperature. Partial mashing involves flaked grains combined with base grain and mashed at about 152F for 30 minutes.

Thanks, everyone, for the help. Very nice community.

 

[Captain Damage]

Uniondr is recommending partial mashing for 1 hour, so I'll go with that (been a while since I did a minimash). He also pointed out something I left out, that you want to use less water for a partial mash than steeping. Mash in 1 to 1½ quarts of water per lb of grain. Steeping is for 1/2 hour.

The reason I specified the flaked grains is because those are specific instances where the grain must be mashed that we get asked about frequently here - sorry to lump you in with everybody else, but there are certain questions that come up quite a bit. We frequently get asked about adding oatmeal to a stout recipe. There are other grains that should be mashed as well. Certainly any base malts, such as 2-row, Munich, Maris Otter, etc. But also malts that are kilned more lightly such as Victory and Special Roast. Caramel/crystal malts and dark kilned malts such as chocolate and roasted barley can be steeped.

 

[unionrdr]

That's pretty much the jist of it CD. And flaked grains are starchy as well,so they need to be mashed with base grains like 2 or 6 row to have the enzymes needed for conversion. What I gave was the basic differences between mashng,part8ial or AG & steeping. The words are used all to often by noobs interchangably. they certainly are not interchangable. Simular but different processes that aren't that hard once you try them.