Unsolicited water advice....

[jmitchell3]

Been brewing for 3 years now. Ive learned this: use RO water. Seriously. Save your money on testing and such and just buy two 5 gallon jugs at $5 each and fill them with your local grocery's $0.25 per gallon filtered water. Or RO water from your home system. Testing is a waste of time. Consistency dictates a clean starting profile.

Add 2g gypsum and 2-3g calcium chloride in a mash for a 5 gallon batch, double both for 10 gals. Double the gypsum for an ipa or pale ale. Nuff said.

Do this for a dozen batches and I challenge you to tell me you've not made the best beers of your career.

If your ambitious use a water spreadsheet like bru n' water to help dial in estimates for acid additions for mash ph. Otherwise dont sweat it.

Water doesn't need to be complicated, but it will take your beer quality up a notch or two.

Cheers. Peace. Happy brewing!

 

[plazola86]

You could simplify anything if that's what your after. You should want to know why your doing what your doing. Nuff said.

 

[jmitchell3]

You could simplify anything if that's what your after. You should want to know why your doing what your doing. Nuff said.

I know all about water. Aaaaalllll about it. Enough to have made good and bad and mediocre. I'm making this recommendation because, among other things, it is one of the surest ways to eliminate variables and build solid water that will serve almost any style very well. This I am saying after over a year of playing with water, reading about water, attempting to use filters and test kits and spreadsheets. Many will chose to go through the learning process of ions and cations and ph and such, or, conversely, the can just go RO and add a tsp or two of these salts as mentioned and make really solid, really repeatable beer without much effort.

There's the why right there

 

[McKnuckle]

First, I completely agree to start with RO/DI and just build from there. Takes all the nonsense out of the equation w.r.t. testing, blending, diluting, unpredictable water supply, etc.

And it does turn out that 2g gypsum/CaCl gets a 5 gallon batch to minimally accepted values of Ca, SO4, and Cl - in the 40-50 ppm range. But there is one more step that brewers should understand and add to their repertoire:

Learn to add lactic acid for very pale beers to get pH in line. And add baking soda to very dark beers for the same reason. For that reason alone, learning to use a tool that estimates mash pH is very useful. You certainly don't NEED to, and if one had to use a "one size fits all" method, I think yours is pretty good.

 

[Derp]

My beers improved substantially after I bought a RO/DI system and stopped using San Antonio's hard water. Another benefit is that StarSan solutions remain clear if I use RO water. I also started using RO water in my starters.

Having a few gallons of RO water on hand is great during the winter months when I run a humidifier to counteract the hot, dry air from the gas furnace.

 

[JeffLacoy]

This is helpful. Thank you. Been using my own town water with a little campden for 1ppm chloramine, but have really wanted to go ro for consistency. I haven't been able to find large volume RO water, usually around $12-13 for an initial buy in per 5g jug. Any national chain groceries/stores that would be consistent in price for buying/swaps?

 

[TheMadKing]

I know all about water. Aaaaalllll about it. Enough to have made good and bad and mediocre. I'm making this recommendation because, among other things, it is one of the surest ways to eliminate variables and build solid water that will serve almost any style very well. This I am saying after over a year of playing with water, reading about water, attempting to use filters and test kits and spreadsheets. Many will chose to go through the learning process of ions and cations and ph and such, or, conversely, the can just go RO and add a tsp or two of these salts as mentioned and make really solid, really repeatable beer without much effort.

There's the why right there

My tap water is virtually RO water, and estimating my mash pH with bru'n water before every brew takes 5 minutes. I would be willing to bet that I spend less time working on my water than you do (since you have to buy RO) and I customize the water of every batch with very little effort.

I think if you had that bad of a year-long struggle with water, there's something you are missing, no offense.

Before moving to my current area with great water, I lived in an area with terrible water and buying RO water is absolutely great advice for most. I don't agree with a 1-size fits all water profile, and you made no mention of acidifying your mash, which is the primary purpose of water adjustment IMO.

Blanket statements rarely work in all cases. Why not put in the 5 minutes of extra effort to tailor your water to your beer?

 

[TheMadKing]

This is helpful. Thank you. Been using my own town water with a little campden for 1ppm chloramine, but have really wanted to go ro for consistency. I haven't been able to find large volume RO water, usually around $12-13 for an initial buy in per 5g jug. Any national chain groceries/stores that would be consistent in price for buying/swaps?

most grocery stores, Safeway, Publix, Kroger, Albertsons, Winco, all have water filter machines with 5-gallon PET jugs and water is usually about $0.20 per gallon and you can refill your own jug each time.

 

[JeffLacoy]

most grocery stores, Safeway, Publix, Kroger, Albertsons, Winco, all have water filter machines with 5-gallon PET jugs and water is usually about $0.20 per gallon and you can refill your own jug each time.

Would it be frowned upon if I brought in 5 gallon buckets with lids to fill? Haha.

 

[TheMadKing]

Would it be frowned upon if I brought in 5 gallon buckets with lids to fill? Haha.

lmao.. I really don't know.. I don't think a bucket will fit in the machine though, they are designed for carboys and gallon jugs.

 

[McKnuckle]

The RO water at the grocery store thing has not hit the Northeast. I've read about it for ages, but never seen such a mythical contraption at our common chains (Stop & Shop, ShopRite, Kings, Whole Foods).

I distill water at home using a cheap machine that does one gallon at a time. I run it 2-3 times a day. Besides brewing water, I use the output for my room evaporative humidifier as well. Since I brew 2-3 gallon batches (4-5 gallons starting volume), the amount of effort works for me. Others would find it too labor intensive.

 

[broadbill]

most grocery stores, Safeway, Publix, Kroger, Albertsons, Winco, all have water filter machines with 5-gallon PET jugs and water is usually about $0.20 per gallon and you can refill your own jug each time.

Yeah, but isn't it spring/filtered water supplying those kiosks and not RO? That was my impression.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yeah, but isn't it spring/filtered water supplying those kiosks and not RO? That was my impression.

They are tap water being run through a reverse osmosis filtration system. Your ion content will be virtually 0.

The only word of caution is to check the service tag on the machine (they all should have one) and make sure it's recent. A reverse osmosis filter is only good for so many gallons.

 

[TheMadKing]

The RO water at the grocery store thing has not hit the Northeast. I've read about it for ages, but never seen such a mythical contraption at our common chains (Stop & Shop, ShopRite, Kings, Whole Foods).

whole foods most definitely has them...

You've never seen anything that looks like that?

They tend to blend in the background and be "that thing you never notice but has always been there" in stores.

 

[McKnuckle]

whole foods most definitely has them...

Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't noticed - I'll have to look next time! I'm usually too distracted by people-watching at that store.

WF is not my local, though, so it would be some effort to get brewing water there.

 

[broadbill]

I will also keep an eye out. I have seen the bubbler refills, but never an RO filling station. I am also in the NEast.

I have sourced RO water from an aquarium supply place, have not done a fill up yet.

 

[jmitchell3]

My tap water is virtually RO water, and estimating my mash pH with bru'n water before every brew takes 5 minutes. I would be willing to bet that I spend less time working on my water than you do (since you have to buy RO) and I customize the water of every batch with very little effort.

I think if you had that bad of a year-long struggle with water, there's something you are missing, no offense.

Before moving to my current area with great water, I lived in an area with terrible water and buying RO water is absolutely great advice for most. I don't agree with a 1-size fits all water profile, and you made no mention of acidifying your mash, which is the primary purpose of water adjustment IMO.

Blanket statements rarely work in all cases. Why not put in the 5 minutes of extra effort to tailor your water to your beer?

I do get what you're saying, and good for you. Having great local water is a blessing that I imagine most folks don't enjoy.

The phoenix metro area tends to be among the worst as our water is very hard and changes sources constantly, making testing weekly and/or monthly a necessity if one is to be certain of one's starting profile.

You are obviously an advanced brewer and have a good comfort level with Bru N Water and with the validity of your water profile and its consistency. I have a friend who is a doctor who had a bear of a time understanding water. This method, while it does not include acid, will likely get most any but the very lightest styles into the ph range for reasonable mash conversion, although maybe not so low for good flavor stability.

I'm not missing anything, trust me. I do use bru n water for my beers. I operate in my personal brewing not unlike yourself.

But most who are beginning their all grain brewing careers spend years making, frankly, sucky beer because they are not using appropriate water or water salt additions. I can't tell you how much beer ive judged that was minerally or overly harsh due to over salting! In lieu of spending the time you and I have spent learning what we know--or even perhaps in the meantime while they do learn about the nuances of 5.4 vs 5.2 ph in a pale ale mash--why not provide a rule of thumb that will likely be helpful?

 

[jmitchell3]

Yeah, but isn't it spring/filtered water supplying those kiosks and not RO? That was my impression.

Most Dissolved solid measurements I've taken from local dispensers are 10-20 ppm... most advertise on the machines that they are RO. I've seen even RO systems with mid-life filters at 30-50 ppm.

 

[TheMadKing]

I do get what you're saying, and good for you. Having great local water is a blessing that I imagine most folks don't enjoy.

The phoenix metro area tends to be among the worst as our water is very hard and changes sources constantly, making testing weekly and/or monthly a necessity if one is to be certain of one's starting profile.

You are obviously an advanced brewer and have a good comfort level with Bru N Water and with the validity of your water profile and its consistency. I have a friend who is a doctor who had a bear of a time understanding water. This method, while it does not include acid, will likely get most any but the very lightest styles into the ph range for reasonable mash conversion, although maybe not so low for good flavor stability.

I'm not missing anything, trust me. I do use bru n water for my beers. I operate in my personal brewing not unlike yourself.

But most who are beginning their all grain brewing careers spend years making, frankly, sucky beer because they are not using appropriate water or water salt additions. I can't tell you how much beer ive judged that was minerally or overly harsh due to over salting! In lieu of spending the time you and I have spent learning what we know--or even perhaps in the meantime while they do learn about the nuances of 5.4 vs 5.2 ph in a pale ale mash--why not provide a rule of thumb that will likely be helpful?

I certainly won't argue with you, and its not BAD advice by any means. It's virtually the same as what ajdelange advises in the water chemistry primer (though your mineral additions are slightly higher I think).

My intent was merely to caution against the pitfall of "catch-all thinking." The new brewer might easily start this routine, see improvement with their beers, then have a bad batch due to water and think, "well I followed my water advice, so that can't be the issue." Then they chase their tale for 4 brews and start changing up a bunch of stuff, when the problem was that they got astringency from a high sparge pH.

 

[McKnuckle]

Unfortunately, I think that water information is handled way too technically here. This leads many people's eyes to glaze over, and they don't realize that practical knowledge is easily obtained without understanding all of the technical nomenclature. You just have to explore it yourself a bit (always an issue for some folks ).

For example, a typical quote from a thread on water basics goes like this:

"Add that acid to the mash water, wait, and measure pH. Then
a = .16/(pH_shift/25) = 16*25/pH_shift = 4/(pH_shift)"

Asked about the variable "a," we learn that:

"a is the mEq required to effect a pH change of 1 unit per kg of malt. Forty grams is 1/25 of a kg. So if you get a pH shift of dpH on 40 g mash with 0.16 mEq of acid you would need 25 times that much for a kg. 25*.16/dPH = 4/dpH. If the pH shift is 0.1 then a = 40. if it is 0.05 then a = 80 etc.."

Now, I can parse that if I make the attempt. I'm an engineer and a reasonably smart fellow. But ultimately I'm like, cool... So how do I adjust water for my Munich Helles? Cause I wanna brew beer, not become a hydrologist. Water is a means to an end for the vast majority of brewers. Only a tiny fraction are into it for the pure science.

I've learned how many grams/liter of gypsum, CaCl, Epsom salts, or baking soda will add n ppm of Ca, Cl, SO4, Na, or Mg to my water. And I know how much lactic acid to add to drop the pH. But I'm content to have somebody else's software estimate the pH for me given my inputs. It's a combination of understanding and taking other things at face value.

Ultimately, we all learn what we invest the time to learn, and incorporate however much knowledge we enjoy and are able to absorb. I think more knowledge can only enrich our brewing (or any pursuit). But some facts are fine to simply accept as they are.

For example, I don't need to measure the sun's radiation with a pyranometer when I decide what clothes to wear on one of my runs. I just read a thermometer and make a judgment based on my experiences of perceiving warmth at different numerically expressed temperatures.

 

[Beer-lord]

I'm about 10 batches in with RO water (got a relatively cheap portable system) and couldn't be happier. While I do use calculators to help with ph values, you almost can't mess up unless you go way overboard on the water salts.
I have seen not only better aroma in my beers but better quality overall. More balance, my hoppy beers are much improved.
My tap water is not awful but really not better suited to darker beers but as I brew mostly pales and IPA's, RO water has been huge for me!

 

[broadbill]

I'm about 10 batches in with RO water (got a relatively cheap portable system) and couldn't be happier. While I do use calculators to help with ph values, you almost can't mess up unless you go way overboard on the water salts.
I have seen not only better aroma in my beers but better quality overall. More balance, my hoppy beers are much improved.
My tap water is not awful but really not better suited to darker beers but as I brew mostly pales and IPA's, RO water has been huge for me!

I'd be interested to hear where you got your portable system. Thanks!

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

just buy two 5 gallon jugs at $5 each and fill them with your local grocery's $0.25 per gallon filtered water.

Could you imagine it was that easy??? They don't sell RO water anywhere near me(like my entire state probably) let alone refill jugs.

 

[str1p3s]

I like this rule of thumb. I'm one of the people that has been confused by water. I've tried a few times and basically give up every time and continue to buy spring water from Meijer and hope that it works out. My beer is hit or miss so far and I don't know if it's a water issue or one of the many other variables that can change. Still working through it...

Anyway, do you treat the whole 10 gallons with those amounts? Or just the strike water? Before starting? During mash or sparge? And how do you do it? Just dump it in and stir?

Another thing I've been confused about... Say that you are paying attention to the pH. You mash in and test and realize you need to make an adjustment. I've heard from multiple places that most of the conversion happens really quickly, so what's the point of adjusting the pH at that point? Wouldn't it be too late?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Say that you are paying attention to the pH. You mash in and test and realize you need to make an adjustment. I've heard from multiple places that most of the conversion happens really quickly, so what's the point of adjusting the pH at that point? Wouldn't it be too late?

You are absolutely correct. Having the ability to predict mash pH, prior to measuring the actual mash pH, is where the fun, or challenge, is.

The feeling you get is no different than hitting your predicted mash temperature, or final gravity, or post boil volume. It just feels good when you do. It feels great when you do it consistently, and to some, it feels even better knowing why.

 

[McKnuckle]

The simplest way to adjust water is to put all additions in the total volume before mashing in. Stir to incorporate, and call it done. If you truly keep the mash and sparge volumes separate, you'll have to figure out proportional additions, which is a minor pain but not terrible.

There are reasons to add salts only the the mash water, or to add something in the boil, but I would say to avoid those variables til you know why you're doing all of this.

I add everything to the total volume at the beginning more than 90% of the time.

 

[jmitchell3]

I like this rule of thumb. I'm one of the people that has been confused by water. I've tried a few times and basically give up every time and continue to buy spring water from Meijer and hope that it works out. My beer is hit or miss so far and I don't know if it's a water issue or one of the many other variables that can change. Still working through it...

Anyway, do you treat the whole 10 gallons with those amounts? Or just the strike water? Before starting? During mash or sparge? And how do you do it? Just dump it in and stir?

Another thing I've been confused about... Say that you are paying attention to the pH. You mash in and test and realize you need to make an adjustment. I've heard from multiple places that most of the conversion happens really quickly, so what's the point of adjusting the pH at that point? Wouldn't it be too late?

Mcknuckle and screw are giving reasonable advice.

My $.02 would be to add just to mash water, with the caveat that one avoids over sparging. The issue as madking points out is that, in addition to salts adding calcium needed to facilitate good yeast health and flocculation, they help bring mash pH down into optimum range for conversion. The only reason to add salts to sparge water would help keep pH down as the sparging process progresses...otherwise it is possible for the pH to rise to the point it begins to extract tannins (astringency) and such. Usually 1-2ml of phosphoric would be more than enough in 3-5 gallons of sparge water to offset this issue, but i honestly wouldnt worry about sparge water until you have several batches with an identified astringency issue. I would bet that for the average batch sparger it wouldnt be an issue 90% of the time. Treating the entire liqour volume premash may be reasonable insurance as mcknuckle recommends.

For more info on this type of simple water treatment see gordon strongs book. He does / recommends something similar. I had read his book and then in the process of doing all my water profiles over time, i started finding that many of my salt additions were very similar. And so i have become a bit of a water minimalist...and my beers have been better for it!

 

[Norselord]

Unless you live where i live.

Here is my water report:
PH: 7.20
Calcium: 6.00
Magnesium: 1.00
Sodium: 3.00
Sulfate: 7.00
Chloride: 0.00
Bicarbonate: 19.00

You can't really get much closer to RO/Distilled than that. I think you can build up to anything with that as a starter.

 

[TheMadKing]

Unless you live where i live.

Here is my water report:
PH: 7.20
Calcium: 6.00
Magnesium: 1.00
Sodium: 3.00
Sulfate: 7.00
Chloride: 0.00
Bicarbonate: 19.00

You can't really get much closer to RO/Distilled than that. I think you can build up to anything with that as a starter.

That's what mine looks like too, about 40 minutes north of you.

I moved here from eastern washington state, where the water was 300-400ppm bicarbonate and a ton of iron... worst brewing water ever.

 

[Norselord]

That's what mine looks like too, about 40 minutes north of you.

I moved here from eastern washington state, where the water was 300-400ppm bicarbonate and a ton of iron... worst brewing water ever.

Lake Lanier water?