Unboxing the Nano from CO Brewing

[Dockside_Brewing]

I have consistently been hitting mash efficiencies 70% to 75% and Brewhouse in the same range. I have been using a .043 crush but for my next brew later on today I am going to try .042 (Sweet Chocolate Stout), I use the SS manifold, RO water, ALWAYS 1lb of rice hulls and 2% Acidulated malt for PH target. I stir initially two times and then let it sit. My valve is wide open the entire mash and sometimes I will do a 90 minute mash to hit my numbers. I recently upgraded to the 25 gallon CBS pot and added a 1/2 bbl SS unitank to up production. One thing I did do was to measure the water temp coming out of the manifold. I found it was 2.5 degrees colder than what the probe was reading so I adjusted it in the set up so I have my manifold water right on target.

Anyone interested in a CBS 20 gallon pot and basket I have one for sale.

 

[prosperbrews]

Do you mean brewhouse or mash efficiency?

Either way, my efficiency is also lower than I expected. 65-70% Brewhouse is typical, mash efficiency 70-75%. Occasionally I will get a couple more % points, not sure why, but I almost always miss my OG target by a few points.

Like you I hit my pH targets and use the Ss manifold. I also did tests and found I require a 90 minute mash, or I am throwing points away. I have tried stirring lots to not stirring at all, and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I am stuck using the shop mill for now, but hearing that you're trying different gaps and still having trouble gives me second thoughts about getting my own mill.

I have the giant 20 gal kettle and only do 5 gallon batches, maybe mash thickness has something to do with it?

I was referencing mash efficiency - so clearly I have some points to gain somewhere. I also use the 20 gallon kettle and do 5 gallon batches. My mash is always pretty thick as my grain bills are typically around 15-16 lbs with a lb of rice hulls to go along with it. Does a thicker mash impact conversion?

 

[prosperbrews]

I have consistently been hitting mash efficiencies 70% to 75% and Brewhouse in the same range. I have been using a .043 crush but for my next brew later on today I am going to try .042 (Sweet Chocolate Stout), I use the SS manifold, RO water, ALWAYS 1lb of rice hulls and 2% Acidulated malt for PH target. I stir initially two times and then let it sit. My valve is wide open the entire mash and sometimes I will do a 90 minute mash to hit my numbers. I recently upgraded to the 25 gallon CBS pot and added a 1/2 bbl SS unitank to up production. One thing I did do was to measure the water temp coming out of the manifold. I found it was 2.5 degrees colder than what the probe was reading so I adjusted it in the set up so I have my manifold water right on target.

Anyone interested in a CBS 20 gallon pot and basket I have one for sale.

I also set a -3 degree differential in the probe to account for differences in mash temp and below the basket. Provided I have good flow, my thermapen reads spot on by sticking it 6 inches into the mash at various locations.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I brewed 10 gallons of sweet chocolate stout today. I hit 80% mash effiency. Target was 1.084 And I hit 1.087. It was a #30 grain bill.

 

[Horseflesh]

Man, I can barely hit my predictions for a 1.050 brew, and efficiency is supposed to fall when you do high gravity... That's nuts!

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I was pleasantly surprised I exceeded my target with such a high ABV beer. Only change on this brew was I went down to a .042 crush and performed a 90 minute mash. I think I am going to go down to .040 crush on the next brew which will be a 15 gallon Octoberfest (#32lb grain bill)

 

[prosperbrews]

I was pleasantly surprised I exceeded my target with such a high ABV beer. Only change on this brew was I went down to a .042 crush and performed a 90 minute mash. I think I am going to go down to .040 crush on the next brew which will be a 15 gallon Octoberfest (#32lb grain bill)

Are you sparging to get that mash efficiency? I believe I have narrowed down my low 60% efficiency issues. I have been doing mostly 6 gallon batches with 16lb grain bills. Because 3.5 gallons of water remains under the basket, my mash thickness is always pretty high, sometimes less than 1.25qt/lb of grain. This is further complicated by the fact that I use a steam condensor with a calculated boil off of .5 gallon per hour.

My theory is that if I do a traditional boil (1.5 gal/hr, and thus, increased amount of water to start), reduce the grain bill to target a 73% efficiency, and keep the crush at .42, I believe the higher grain to grist ratio and better lautering performance from a course crush will get me to 75%.

In theory, 10 gallon batches do better with efficiency due to the grain/grist ratio rising the higher you go.

 

[mcgimpkins]

Are you sparging to get that mash efficiency?

Yes try sparging. I usually put all my water in at once, heat it up to strike temp, then drain a gallon into a thermos before adding my basket. If I am brewing a 10 gallon batch it take 2 gallons. Run your mash and have it mash out, then pull your basket and once drained pour your thermos of hot water though it. I have not worried about grain to water ratios.

On a hand full of beers the mash was really thick and I worried about it backing up and exposing the element. In that scenario I poured in my water in the thermos and mashed as usual, then poured a gallon of cold filtered tap water in basket to sparge with. (There are a couple of articles stating that the temp of your sparge water does not matter if you as long as you have already performed a mashout.) I then had to extend a the boil for an hour to get rid of the extra water, however it gave me decent efficiency and I hit the numbers I was shooting for.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I usually do not sparge but I have withheld a gallon or two before. I run with the ss manifold valve wide open and the whirlpool valve closed 3/4 and keep my eye on the site glass to make sure the element is always underwater. I also have the steam condenser. On the 20 gallon nano it was a .8 gph boil off but on the 25 gallon kettle it is 1.8 gph. What do you use to measure your mash SG?

 

[prosperbrews]

I usually do not sparge but I have withheld a gallon or two before. I run with the ss manifold valve wide open and the whirlpool valve closed 3/4 and keep my eye on the site glass to make sure the element is always underwater. I also have the steam condenser. On the 20 gallon nano it was a .8 gph boil off but on the 25 gallon kettle it is 1.8 gph. What do you use to measure your mash SG?

I use a refractometer. I also run with the manifold fairly wide open. If I open it up too much the water shoots pretty high out of the larger holes, so I clamp it down a bit as to not create hot side aeration. Nonetheless, I’m still getting very good flow and keep an eye on the site glass which is a very good gauge on if your pumping faster then it can move through the grain bed.

 

[Horseflesh]

Because 3.5 gallons of water remains under the basket, my mash thickness is always pretty high, sometimes less than 1.25qt/lb of grain.

In a discussion elsewhere I was told that mash thickness should be calculated with the total water volume. Even though we have that huge dead space and the grain bed is thick, it's the total water volume that matters. Apparently?

When I started checking my conversion efficiency, I saw results that backed up that claim. Check out this table at BrauKaiser:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency

You can check conversion efficiency by taking refractometer samples over time. When I have done this, it takes about 90 minutes to get close to the theoretical maximum gravity value in that table, using thickness calculated from the total water volume. If I used a thickness value that omitted the dead space liquid, I would expect my gravity to be much higher, right? But I have never observed that.

Because my conversion efficiency approaches the theoretical maximum, I have to conclude that my efficiency problems must stem from the lauter process. But when I have tried holding back some mash water for a pour-over, it hasn't helped. Maybe I need to try a couple of gallons instead of 0.5 - 1 gal, as I have before.

Or maybe I need a mill, but I don't want to make the room for one!

 

[prosperbrews]

In a discussion elsewhere I was told that mash thickness should be calculated with the total water volume. Even though we have that huge dead space and the grain bed is thick, it's the total water volume that matters. Apparently?

When I started checking my conversion efficiency, I saw results that backed up that claim. Check out this table at BrauKaiser:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency

You can check conversion efficiency by taking refractometer samples over time. When I have done this, it takes about 90 minutes to get close to the theoretical maximum gravity value in that table, using thickness calculated from the total water volume. If I used a thickness value that omitted the dead space liquid, I would expect my gravity to be much higher, right? But I have never observed that.

Because my conversion efficiency approaches the theoretical maximum, I have to conclude that my efficiency problems must stem from the lauter process. But when I have tried holding back some mash water for a pour-over, it hasn't helped. Maybe I need to try a couple of gallons instead of 0.5 - 1 gal, as I have before.

Or maybe I need a mill, but I don't want to make the room for one!

That 3.5 gallons of water is not in contact with the grain bed to aid in conversion. Sure, you recirculate, but there is also a fair bit of channeling going on as the water moves through the grain bed. I think folks are seeing higher efficiencies with 10 gallon batches due to having more water above the basket to make contact with the grain. Just a theory which I hope to prove soon.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

Is your manifold under water or sitting on your grain bed?

 

[prosperbrews]

Is your manifold under water or sitting on your grain bed?

Mine is sitting on my grain bed, there is about .5 inch of wort that sits on top of the grain bed

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I always have several inches of wort on top of the grain bed. I am not sure if that makes a difference or not. Here is a pic of my stout mash from the other day.

 

[jabba11]

View media item 69403I am doing very similar things to whats already been posted here. My mash efficiency is regularly 75%. I didn't have to adjust the temp on my mine though Ive measured grain bed temps dozens of times and right out of the box mine has always been pretty correct. I am pretty sure my mill gap is set at .42 maybe even tighter. I use rice hulls and stir at the end of a protein rest as example and then again once the bed has reached temp just to make sure the temp is solid through the bed. I DO do a sparge or more so a rinse at sparge temp I do not do a mash out. I usually have that water heating to sparge temp as well not just a cold rinse. In my experience it does increase the O.G. It really makes some sense as just lifting the basket out theres sure to be SOME residual sugars left behind. I pull about a gallon off to do this and it comes from my total calculated water after adding in salts (I use RO). I use a rotating sparge arm that "sprinkles that water as it rotates. Im not sure pouring it over the bed works as well but im not a fluid dynamics genius so who knows. I primarily do ten gallon batches and im not a "big beer" drinker and so my grists are usually on the lighter side of the beer world with most of my beers coming in between 4.5 and 5% ABV. I have the ss manifold and run recirc and the manifold full open MOST of the time. Seems like with 5 gallon batches I have to close the recirc some but never on a 10 gallon. The pot upper left is the sparge.. heres a link to the sparge arm working you can try to view not sure that will work.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

Where did you purchase the sparge arm? Any close up pics on the attachment?

 

[prosperbrews]

I always have several inches of wort on top of the grain bed. I am not sure if that makes a difference or not. Here is a pic of my stout mash from the other day.

You are doing 10+ gallon batches. You have enough water to completely submerge the grain bed and then some, so it makes sense you’d have much more water on top of a settled grain bed. This is my theory why 5 gallon batches suffer in efficiency - grain bed is much thicker and doesn’t have the constant direct contact with as much water as you’d get with a 10 gallon batch

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I agree. The 20 gallon pot is just too big for a 5 gallon batch to hit your targets. I went to the 25 gallon pot because I also wanted to do 15 gallon batches which was out of reach for the 20.

 

[prosperbrews]

I agree. The 20 gallon pot is just too big for a 5 gallon batch to hit your targets. I went to the 25 gallon pot because I also wanted to do 15 gallon batches which was out of reach for the 20.

Hoping I can overcome this limitation by not using the steam condenser in favor of traditional boil (adds 1 gallon to boil off, which means more mash water) and lessening the grain bill in anticipation of a higher efficiency. Doing both of these things brings the grain/grist ratio up from 1.2 qt/lb to 1.7 qt/lb. I will report back on the outcome.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

Keep us posted.

 

[jabba11]

Where did you purchase the sparge arm? Any close up pics on the attachment?

Its a left over from my cooler and garage days honestly so its like 9 years old and while I can find a few pics of ones like it online I cant find one in the states like it for sale still. Looks like maybe guys have been making them themselves . it just so happens that the phenolic holder it comes with wedges up underneath the cross arm quite nicely. Short of that it just connects via a quick connector to the pot and after I pull the malt pipe I turn it on and let it go full speed. I honestly WOULD like a smaller kettle nd malt pipe for 5 gallon batches but cost has kept me from doing it.

 

[jabba11]

FWIW when I brew 5 gallon batches I regularly actually brew a 7 gallon batch and that seems to give me certainly more than I need but also allows for trub dumping etc. That's really how I get around the constraints of doing a true 5 gallon batch. Last weekend I brewed a milk stout. ~12 pounds of grist 10.13 gallons of water. 1.056 OG. I held back a gallon like normal so 9.13 gallons in the pot. It was about as tight as ID want to get and yet the grist WAS covered completely but barely. 7.23 gallons into the fermenter. Ill bottle the extra.

 

[milo_leon]

does anyone have settings they can share from beersmith? we are using the profile from Colorado Brewing but we keep missing our target OG and not getting enough water after the mash. thoughts?

 

[SanPancho]

if I could buy the topsflo motor ITSELF at a reduced cost I may go back to it. I mean if my chugger craps out at least I can buy the one with the plastic head and mount my stainless to it. Honestly the setup I created works pretty dang well though and I no longer have to worry about all the weight hanging on the fitting on the pot.

You cant buy the motor itslef, but you can buy the cheaper plastic models and swap the motor. Occasionally they do come up on ebay as well.

 

[swimIan]

does anyone have settings they can share from beersmith? we are using the profile from Colorado Brewing but we keep missing our target OG and not getting enough water after the mash. thoughts?

I’d say you need to adjust your grain absorption rate until your calculated prebuilt volume equals the actual prevail volume. The equipment profile considers kettle/equipment losses and boil off rate only.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I just updated my grain absorption rate in beersmith. They have two in the settings, one for standard mash and one for BIAB. Since I select BIAB I upped that one. I am brewing tomorrow so I will let you know how it goes.

 

[Horseflesh]

My BIAB Grain Absorb in Beersmith is currently .800 fl oz/oz. I found the default value of 0.586 to be way off.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

Thanks for the info. I agree it was too low. I made mine .75 and will test it out tomorrow.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

1.8 gph on the boil off with condenser and .82 grain absorption rate for BIAB seems spot on for my system. I am using the 25 gallon Nano. I think I am going to try .039 on the crush for the next brew down from .042.