Troubles with All-Grain Stouts in Seattle

[homebrewpey]

Hey Everyone,

I'm not brand new to the site, but just created an account today to participate in learning more about beer!

I've been making all-grain batches for about a year now in Seattle and have never once had an issue with making IPAs or pales. For some reason, though, every time I attempt to make a stout in Seattle (a location I've heard which has fairly soft water), my wort does not turn to beer and I end up tossing a batch of otherwise good wort. Has this happened to anyone else? This is my third batch in a row that has not even shown one bubble in the airlock and I'm becoming incredibly discouraged.

Here are the facts:

1. I live in Seattle
2. I do not test my water pH, is this recommended?
3. I add WYeast nutrient to each batch
4. I test the OG, which is right on target every time
5. No reason to suspect contamination

Anyone have any ideas?

 

[Scimmia]

unless you have ungodly amounts of chloramine or something, I don't see water being the culprit here. Forget the airlock, is the SG dropping? What yeast are we talking about? Aeration method? Starter?

 

[homebrewpey]

Hey Scimmia,

Thanks for your reply. It's difficult for me to believe the gravity could drop without even one bubble from the airlock, but I'll chalk this one up to inexperience. I will check the gravity as soon as I get home tonight.

I've made three stout batches, the first two with Wyeast Irish 1084 and the last with Wyeast 1056 American. My aeration method consisted of vigorously mixing the wort as it cooled from the low 200s to the high 180s. I used smack packs of Wyeast.

Hopefully this helps. Thanks for the tip about checking the gravity.

 

[Yooper]

If you make the wort the same way you do the others, and add yeast, you'll have beer in the end!

What temperature are you mashing at for the stouts?

 

[Pappers_]

what temperature was the wort when you pitched the yeast?

 

[homebrewpey]

Very good questions! This is pertinent information.

1. Mashing temps for first two stouts were 152-153F; one batch was a 60min mash the other a 90min. The mashing for the third was 153F for 60 min mash.

Pitching temps for the first two batches were about 70F. By some unfathomable mistake, the pitching temp for this latest batch was 100F. From what I've read, this will not kill the yeast, but may shock them and prolong the lag time. I've considered repitching, but was advised to wait at least 36 hours due to a possible lag time. Does this seem reasonable? I figured this may not be the contributing issue, since the other pitching temps were reasonable.

I really appreciate your help, guys.

 

[JesseRC]

I've been very happy making stouts with dry yeast. Just pitch some s-04 and all should be good. Have you been getting the liquid yeast from the same place, and have you made starters. If your not gonna bother with starters then you might as well go with dry yeast.

 

[Scimmia]

I've considered repitching, but was advised to wait at least 36 hours due to a possible lag time.

Wait just a minute, it's been under 36 hrs, pitching a smack pack with no starter, and you're worried? 36 hrs wouldn't be an issue with proper pitching rates, let alone underpitching. Wait it out.

 

[humann_brewing]

Check your PH. I am sure your water is pretty soft and the reason why you say that you have good luck with pales and such but when you add all that dark grain to make a stout and have soft water, your PH is going to drop like a rock and you need to add some residual alkalinity (harden your water) to bring it up in a acceptable range for a stout.

 

[khiddy]

I do have a concern about your method of "vigorously stirring the batch from 200*F to 180*F". That is actually the time when you DON'T want to introduce air into the wort, but rather you should wait until it's down around 70*F due to...

Have you heard of Hot Side Aeration? Though a bit of a bogeyman in regards to mashing, there is real potential for damaging the long-term stability of your beer if you introduce much air into the hot wort post-boil (by, for example, vigorous stirring of hot post-boil wort). The theory is that oxygenating your wort when its hot causes the melanoidins to be transformed in the beer, leading to brews that taste cardboard-y.

I'm just bringing up an observation here, I'm certainly no expert, but I've read about it and have questions. This last weekend I watched a brewing buddy vigorously pour 15 gallons of hot post-boil wort into a chilling vessel, and I grew concerned about HSA enough to encourage him to look into it. If you're drinking the beer relatively quickly, it might be a non-issue. But if it's a big beer that you're planning to cellar, you might have a concern.

 

[homebrewpey]

Wait just a minute, it's been under 36 hrs, pitching a smack pack with no starter, and you're worried? 36 hrs wouldn't be an issue with proper pitching rates, let alone underpitching. Wait it out.

Good advice. I won't be too overly concerned quite yet.

 

[homebrewpey]

I do have a concern about your method of "vigorously stirring the batch from 200*F to 180*F". there is real potential for damaging the long-term stability of your beer if you introduce much air into the hot wort post-boil (by, for example, vigorous stirring of hot post-boil wort). The theory is that oxygenating your wort when its hot causes the melanoidins to be transformed in the beer, leading to brews that taste cardboard-y.

I've been reading about this in Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide. Thank you so much for your input; I'll be careful of this in the future. I am concerned, though with vigorously incorporating air at 70F, since that's a prime temperature for any bacteria or yeast in the surrounding area to make a pretty nice home for itself, which is the reason I was stirring so vigorously around 200F. I suppose until I can have the space and funding for a device to incorporate oxygen in a more closed environment, I'll have to cross my fingers and hope my yeast can outpace the other bacteria and wild yeasts.

 

[homebrewpey]

Check your PH. I am sure your water is pretty soft and the reason why you say that you have good luck with pales and such but when you add all that dark grain to make a stout and have soft water, your PH is going to drop like a rock and you need to add some residual alkalinity (harden your water) to bring it up in a acceptable range for a stout.

This is what I am concerned with. Since I've been making beer for some time now and I only have issues with stouts, I have a feeling the pH may play a bigger contributing factor, keeping all other things constant.

Would you recommend using pH strips before mashing and during the boil to pin in order to be able to adjust the 'hardness' of the water? Is there some kind of guide or recommendation for stout pH?

 

[Scimmia]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you could get the pH low enough with just malt to have an effect like this on the yeast. Unless you're not getting any conversion at all and there's no fermentable sugars in the wort or something. I can't imagine what it would take to get to that point, though.

 

[jmo88]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you could get the pH low enough with just malt to have an effect like this on the yeast. Unless you're not getting any conversion at all and there's no fermentable sugars in the wort or something. I can't imagine what it would take to get to that point, though.

right. I've made two stouts and I live in Seattle. Both made great beer, but the one I adjusted tasted better. You need to add practically every brewing salt to the beer. This is a good thing though, no matter what beer you make, you don't need to cut it with distilled. Use palmer's or -TH-'s water calculator to get your RA in check for the mash's pH. Given all this, there is no reason you shouldn't have made beer. Did your smack pack swell?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the one stout was made with unmodified Seattle water and with a smack pack without a starter. I know better now, but I still made beer.

 

[ChshreCat]

As for the airlock... I never have bubbles in my airlock. Never. No bubbles. Not one. I make beer.

 

[homebrewpey]

As for the airlock... I never have bubbles in my airlock. Never. No bubbles. Not one. I make beer.

Just out of curiosity, how long does the fermentation process generally take for your beers? With my IPAs, I see a vigorous fermentation as evidenced by the airlock. With the stouts, I don't see any activity in the airlock, though I checked tonight and found a gravity change. (OG=1.059, gravity today=1.038.) This wasn't too extreme of a change after three weeks, so I'm curious if this will continue to drop as the yeast continue to ferment the maltose without any airlock activity. Does this seem right?

 

[homebrewpey]

right. I've made two stouts and I live in Seattle. Both made great beer, but the one I adjusted tasted better. You need to add practically every brewing salt to the beer. This is a good thing though, no matter what beer you make, you don't need to cut it with distilled. Use palmer's or -TH-'s water calculator to get your RA in check for the mash's pH. Given all this, there is no reason you shouldn't have made beer. Did your smack pack swell?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the one stout was made with unmodified Seattle water and with a smack pack without a starter. I know better now, but I still made beer.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll definitely look into the water calculators for mash pH. My smack pack was super inflated, so I don't have any reason to suspect my yeast were not ready to pitch or were unable to ferment.

 

[ChshreCat]

Just out of curiosity, how long does the fermentation process generally take for your beers? With my IPAs, I see a vigorous fermentation as evidenced by the airlock. With the stouts, I don't see any activity in the airlock, though I checked tonight and found a gravity change. (OG=1.059, gravity today=1.038.) This wasn't too extreme of a change after three weeks, so I'm curious if this will continue to drop as the yeast continue to ferment the maltose without any airlock activity. Does this seem right?

Anywhere from a day to a week for thee bulk of fermentation to be done. I let them go 3+ weeks to finish up the whole process and clean up.

 

[michael.berta]

I live in Seattle (city limits) and make this stout all the time with no issues. The only thing I do to the water is dechlorinate.

I wouldn't aerate until you get down to pitching temperature and I wouldn't pitch at 100 degrees. I pitch ale yeasts in the 60-65 degree range. I always make a starter with liquid yeast and use wyeast yeast nutrient. What was your OG before you pitched? Can you post the recipe?

From what I've read so far I think that pitching at 100 degrees might be the culprit. That can't be good for the yeast....

 

[wildwest450]

As for the airlock... I never have bubbles in my airlock. Never. No bubbles. Not one. I make beer.

It's not our fault you use crap buckets to ferment in.

 

[Kaiser]

Given the soft Seattle water it is possible for the grist to pull the mash pH below 5.0. It mostly depends on the amounts of crystal malts used which are more acidic per unit of color than roasted malts.

I'll have to fill in my spreadsheet later to give you an idea what you should add to your water for stouts.

Ka

 

[ChshreCat]

It's not our fault you use crap buckets to ferment in.

You got a prollem w'my bukkit, buddy?

 

[IrregularPulse]

Obligatory

 

[Scimmia]

Given the soft Seattle water it is possible for the grist to pull the mash pH below 5.0. It mostly depends on the amounts of crystal malts used which are more acidic per unit of color than roasted malts.

I'll have to fill in my spreadsheet later to give you an idea what you should add to your water for stouts.

Ka

I understand there would be flavor consequences from that, but would it cause the yeast to not ferment, or to ferment very slowly? I thought the pH would have to get quite a bit lower for that to be an issue.

 

[Kaiser]

Low pH can affect fermentability adversely but there should still be something to ferment. Yeast itself prefers a low pH envionment. They actively lower the pH themselves.

Kai

 

[Kaiser]

Looks like I made the mistake others made and jumped on mash pH since Seattle water considered too soft of many stouts.

Homebrewpey mentioned that his OG is on the spot which should mean that the mash worked and the pH can’t be off to far.

I’d follow the advice that others have given and pitch yeast from a starter in a cooler and better aerated wort. Melanoidens are known to affect fermentation performance negatively but I have nor yet seen brewers complain that their stouts ferment much slower than their other beers.

It may still be advisable that you add salts to your water to bring the ion levels in more acceptable ranges. Increasing the residual alkalinity may also help you with your stouts even though that may not be your current problem.

Kai

 

[homebrewpey]

I'll have to fill in my spreadsheet later to give you an idea what you should add to your water for stouts.

Ka

I would be very grateful to have more insight on this. I almost considered going back to the drawing board and using an extract to make my next stout, but slapped myself and realized that I am up to the challenge.

Knowing what to add to the water would be very helpful.

 

[Kaiser]

I would be very grateful to have more insight on this. I almost considered going back to the drawing board and using an extract to make my next stout, but slapped myself and realized that I am up to the challenge.

Knowing what to add to the water would be very helpful.

Since it is unlikely that your problem is solely the result of your soft water I didn't follow through with my initial assessment. You may give this water a try:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Various_water_recipes#Moderately_alkaline_water

I use this to build water for my Schwarzbier from R/O water. It should also work for a stout when you start with Seattle water.

Kai

 

[homebrewpey]

I use this to build water for my Schwarzbier from R/O water. It should also work for a stout when you start with Seattle water.

Kai

Thanks Kai!