Trouble shooting my problem

[Piruz]

Hi! I have brewed now 6 all grain BIAB batches, and I'm lost!

All my beers have turned drinkable, just off flavors here and there. But one thing is common from the first batch to newest one: tart aftertaste. It could be astringency, but only in some degree, it isn't sour, but it does turn my wheat beers to bland, tart water.

Is it contamination? I do use Star San and wash all my equipment before and after brewing. And hasnt noticed anything odd in fermentor. I do use plastic buckets, because steel fermentors cost too much in EU, and glass isnt an option for me.

I have monitored mash temp, pH, fermentation temp etc. closely. So either I really dont understand anything about brewing, because my beers have that homebrew taste and turns bland in couple months, or I have infection which causes me a trouble but what to do about it? Should I toss my fermentors away? What if new fermentor gets infection too after one brew?

Thanks for any advice. I have been reading forums and google sites for 2 weeks now, still not understanding what causes my problem.

 

[beernutz]

If you sense your beer is turning bland in a couple months that might indicate an oxidation problem. Are you kegging or bottling your batches? Can you give more details on your packaging procedures and on how long and what type fermentation you do?

Can you give more details on the tart aftertaste that you consistently taste? Some people equate tartness with excessive astringency which can have several causes. Have you confirmed your taste impressions with other tasters? It could be that you just have a low threshold for tasting the blandness or tartness you believe are present.

 

[Piruz]

Oxidation can be causing loss of taste, but how about tart aftertaste? I bottle all my brews, and I dont splash my beer after I pitch my yeast and my bottles have nice 2-3 cm headspace.

I move beer to bottling bucket with siphon off from yeast cake, and bottle it straight away from it and cap bottles. I then place them to my sauna, which is coolest place in my apartment (22 C) and let them carb 2 weeks before testing.

My first batch I was hesitate, and bottled after 1 week only, but other batches have sitted 2-3 weeks in primary at 20 C.

My palate isnt really good yet, so it could be astringency too, and only my girlfriend and parents have tasted them. Parents told me my imperial stout was amazing on taste, only to the point where aftertaste kicked in, tasting bitter.

I cant really know if its bitter, tart or astringent taste, but its the same from hefeweizen to stouts.

Water maybe? Well I use carbon filter for chlorine/chloramine and add lactic acid to pale beers (only last 2 batches).

I really should get a friend who homebrews, so we could evaluate whole brewing process... I'm just not sure where to find one.

 

[madscientist451]

Star san isn't a cleaner, its a sanitizer. Use PBW or something similar to clean your fermenter and other equipment. Don't waste star-san on your kettle, when your wort boils, it sanitizes itself.
Inspect each of your bottles, hold the bottom of the bottle up to a light source and look in the opening. If there is any crud or film on the bottom, fill with PBW and let stand overnight, scrub with bottle brush, it it still isn't clean, toss it. This procedure needs to be done everytime you bottle. Submerge clean bottles in a bucket of star-san, wait at least 2 minutes, dump and immediately fill and cap. Count out the bottle caps you need and put in a small dish with star san.
The bottling bucket should be cleaned and then rinsed with star-san.
Priming sugar should be boiled in some water to sanitize before adding.
If you are re-pitching your yeast, now is a good time to change it up and see if that has any effect on the sour after-taste.
Another source of after-taste could be your water. If you can get bottled spring water, try using that and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Piruz]

@Madscientist, I have done everything you said. I use Star San after washing my equipment and cleaning them, leaving them in solution for even over night. Same for my bottles. I always scrub them clean and put them to bucket filled with Star San solution. And soak caps just before bottling. Boiled priming sugar (DME) and cooled down with ice bath.

Only thing I havent tried is bottled water. Because.... It aint no cheap so Im better off drinking craft beers from micro breweries than paying 5€/10 liters of bottled water.

 

[jalc6927]

Maybe it’s in the recipes you’re using, or the yeast?

Not sure if you’re buying kits or using your own recipes

If so, find a recipe for a beer you know and like and brew it using fresh ingredients

If problem still occurs it’s in your process

 

[thehaze]

Tart flavour could be the yeast ( happened to me with S-04 and WB-06 ) and a lower pH in both the mash and the final beer. A pH meter would help avoid a tart finish, by adjusting the mash and boil pH.

 

[Piruz]

I use my own (borrowed) recipes and biab (all grain) brewing.

This is my hefeweizen (not so traditional)
8L batch
1.25 kg 50% wheat malt
1.25 kg 50% pilsner malt
12g Hallertau Saphir 4% AA 60 min
White Labs WL300 yeast

Had already washed and sanitized fermenter, siphon, mesh bag (used for filtering) paddle, made 1L starter from yeast (yeast was pretty old).
Collected 12L of water, carbon filtered, added 1.2ml lactic acid.
Heated to 69C, added malts, got 67C mash, mashed 60 min, mixed every 15 mins. pH 5.4 temp constant 67C.
Pulled biab bag out, left strain on the kettle, heated mash to rolling boil (bag already removed from the top) added hops and started timer.
45 mins later added steel immersion chiller to kettle.
60 mins passed, took my kettle to my bathroom, hooked waterhoses to chiller and let it flow. Got down to 20C in 20 mins. Removed chiller, put collander and mesh bag on top of fermenter, and poured wort through it.
Then took the lid, put it in place, shook vigorously to aerate, pop it open, added yeast, put lid on, airlock, filled up with star san solution, put it in my fermentation "chamber" and left for 14 days.

Then siphoned it to bottling bucket which has been washed and sanitized like other equipment too, and already had boiled priming DME in it, bottles laying in order, siphoned beer to them, capped with capper and left to carb up (no swirling or moving bottles for 2 weeks).

Anything I missed?

 

[parrothead64]

Try entering a couple of bottles in a competition. You can find a schedule at Bjcp.org. I have entered a few beers that I knew were probably not going to win. You will still get good feedback from an experienced judge that can taste your beer.

 

[Smellyglove]

Can it be tannins? Dry, astringent somewhat bitter sensation like chewing on a seed from a grape? This sets in in the aftertaste.

 

[jalc6927]

If you’re getting the same thing all the time try one thing different like use dry yeast, if same thing occurs try a different grain

 

[Piruz]

Well, back to drawing board. If it is the tannins, then I would expect every new brewer to have this problem? Especially biab brewers. Because I have done everything like those "pro biab brewers" who have even won competitions, I have ordered malts from 2 different shops, used non filtered and filtered water (tap water, low in minerals, soft water, very good drinking water).

I have measured mash pH (paper strips 4.8-6.2 range). I always do batches from 8-12 liters. But my fermenter is 20L. Is this bad?

I have freezer as fermentation chamber with heating pad under fermenter.

Have used filtered water for cleaning my equipments too.

Have been searching for RO water systems, seems to be too expensive and not as easy to install/use as carbon filter so I'm not going to switch my water yet. I happen to know that our towns only micro brewery uses same water, and they dont even filter it and their beers are fantastic (except their imperial stout experiment in oloroso barrel).

Have tried 5 different yeasts, dry and liquid, different malt combos, from weizen to stout. Different hops, from noble german hops to english and US hops.

Used Star San as sanitizer, new brown bottles and caps. I brew indoor and have to say cleanliness isn't a problem, since my girlgriend is very strict with cleaning.

I have watched videos, read books and read many homebrewers (new and veterans) brewing processes and have done exact as told. So I'm down to my water chemistry.

I'm going to brew extract lager as a next batch, and if it has that same bitter taste in it, I have to stop brewing until I move to somewhere else where water is good for brewing. And I live in high-rise aparment (? Is that really american-english word for that?) which is only 3 years old, so pipes are pretty new compared to old houses, and water doesnt have any odours in it.

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Sorry to hear that you're experiencing a poor taste with each batch. Seems like it may be water since you've eliminated most other variables, but I'd still recommend trying to find another brewer or someone who knows beer well to see what they think. Good luck!

 

[flars]

Even though you are checking the mash pH with the strips your problem could still be the mash pH. pH strips aren't very accurate especially when they are getting old. A few things to try. Enter your recipe in Bru'n Water for an estimation of the mash pH. Treat your water with a Campden tablet to remove chlorine and chloramine. Change your acid to phosphoric if acid is needed in the mash or in the sparge water.

 

[Piruz]

@flars done that too, unluckily you cant buy campden as a tablets in my country, so I would need a scale that can weight 0.27 grams of potassium metabisulfite. And is phosporic acid better than lactic? My brewing water is close to Pilsen, if I have used Bru right, except bicarbonate is 60 ppm.

 

[Piruz]

""Carbonate is a strongly alkaline buffer (which) goes into solution as hydrogen carbonates...Carbonate resists increases in the mash acidity by neutralizing acids as they are formed. (It keeps the pH high, in other words) It also hinders gelatinization of starch by alpha amylase, inpedes trub flocculation during the cold break and increases risk of contamination in the ferment. It contributes a harsh, bitter flavor overwhelming in delicate lagers...Preferably, carbonate should be less than 50ppm when pale malt...is used."

Not sure if thats about carbonate or bicarbonate, but it sure would explain what I have been experiencing...

So my water is the problem here. I'm just confused about what to do to it.

 

[irontodd]

Do you know of any avid homebrewers near you? Maybe you could invite one over for a pint and a brew day, they may be able to help identify the flavor, and potential causes in your process?

 

[d3track]

What are you washing your equipment with?