Thoughts on my 777 IPA recipe

[GundyGang1]

Thoughts on new hop schedule??? Roughly 70 IBU (choosing to ignore ibu calculations in BS for whirlpool since it's under 170f).

First Wort Hops
0.60 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 5 11.8 IBUs
0.60 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 6 15.3 IBUs

Boil Ingredients
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 8.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 14.6 IBUs
1.30 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 7.0 IBUs
1.30 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 4.2 IBUs
1.30 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 9.2 IBUs

Steeped Hops @ 170f
1.00 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min

Dry Hop
1.00 oz Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 19 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 20 0.0 IBUs

 

[douglasbarbin]

So now you're only doing a 20 minute boil?

 

[GundyGang1]

So now you're only doing a 20 minute boil?

No, 60 minutes. BS wants a time for the FWH and since I use my stove it takes a while to get to a boil, then just starting to add at 15 minutes left in the boil.

 

[m00ps]

Based on those IBU numbers though, it seems beersmith is calculating your fwh additons as being only boiled for 20min, when it sould be 60+min. Basically all the IBUs will get extracted from fwh like a 60 or 90min addition

 

[douglasbarbin]

Yeah, FWH includes the entire time spent boiling. That's why a FWH contributes more bitterness than an equivalent amount of hops added at the start of the boil.

 

[GundyGang1]

Based on those IBU numbers though, it seems beersmith is calculating your fwh additons as being only boiled for 20min, when it sould be 60+min. Basically all the IBUs will get extracted from fwh like a 60 or 90min addition

Good point, hadn't thought about that. Still figuring out BS. So how do you calculate that in BS, assuming a 60 minute boil and potentially 20 or so minutes to bring to a boil?

 

[m00ps]

I'd just do them as 60min additions, since they go by how long it resides in boiling wort. Though something like 70 may be more accurate to account for the extraction during the warming up period. I try not to get cauight up in IBUs though. Theres too many other factors that go into the final perceived bitterness on your palate - malt character, yeast flavors and off flavors, FG, temperature, hop freshness and harvest date, even your own sinuses and the last thing you ate that day. I've made probably 30 different IPAs and never bothered to calculate the actual IBUs. Just trial and error

 

[douglasbarbin]

Good point, hadn't thought about that. Still figuring out BS. So how do you calculate that in BS, assuming a 60 minute boil and potentially 20 or so minutes to bring to a boil?

I'd put it in as 60 minute FWH. Should be reasonably close, especially since you aren't getting all your IBUs early.

 

[joshesmusica]

the reason why whirlpool additions are screwy in BS is because instead of going back and adding more IBUs to all of your additions it adds any IBU contributions onto the whirlpool step (since as stated if above 170-180 isomerization will still occur). if you plan to chill to 170 before the addition, simply type in 0 mins steep.

as far as FWH, they say the addition adds perceived bitterness equivalent to that of a 45 min addition. so although the actual IBUs go up, the perceived bitterness might be lower since it's perceived as smoother than a 60 min addition.

a lot of people state that IPAs are meant to be super dry and really feature the hops only. I tend to think that even according to the BJCP guidelines there can be some balancing going on. You don't necessarily want this to just be a DPA or anything, but there can still be a little bit of a balance going on. According to the 2015 styles guidelines an AIPA can be up to 1.014 FG.

I personally like to use this ratio when finding a balance according to style:
http://www.madalchemist.com/relative_bitterness.html
http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_corrected.html
It takes the BU:GU (or IBU:OG) ratio and adds onto that the apparent attenuation in order to get a closer idea of perceived bitterness, which is what matters more in the end.

 

[Chris_Primavera]

Ive used maltodextrin a few times, but not in an IPA. The goal for an IPA is to get it as dry as possible. I'd maybe use maltodextrin to correct the FG of a porter, stout, or something like an ESB that ended up being too dry. Though I havent used it in a while. From experience, I've learned to tune my mash temp to get in the desired range of FG. So, basically, for an IPA dont worry about it. The dryer the better

You are probably better off looking at your mash temperature instead of FG to modify body.

 

[GundyGang1]

the reason why whirlpool additions are screwy in BS is because instead of going back and adding more IBUs to all of your additions it adds any IBU contributions onto the whirlpool step (since as stated if above 170-180 isomerization will still occur). if you plan to chill to 170 before the addition, simply type in 0 mins steep.

as far as FWH, they say the addition adds perceived bitterness equivalent to that of a 45 min addition. so although the actual IBUs go up, the perceived bitterness might be lower since it's perceived as smoother than a 60 min addition.

a lot of people state that IPAs are meant to be super dry and really feature the hops only. I tend to think that even according to the BJCP guidelines there can be some balancing going on. You don't necessarily want this to just be a DPA or anything, but there can still be a little bit of a balance going on. According to the 2015 styles guidelines an AIPA can be up to 1.014 FG.

I personally like to use this ratio when finding a balance according to style:
http://www.madalchemist.com/relative_bitterness.html
http://www.madalchemist.com/chart_bitterness_corrected.html
It takes the BU:GU (or IBU:OG) ratio and adds onto that the apparent attenuation in order to get a closer idea of perceived bitterness, which is what matters more in the end.

According to that my RBR is 1.19, so is that crazy bitter? Never used that scale before. .5 is said to be balanced, but is that out of 1 or higher?

 

[joshesmusica]

According to that my RBR is 1.19, so is that crazy bitter? Never used that scale before. .5 is said to be balanced, but is that out of 1 or higher?

that is even slightly above the relative bitterness range of a DIPA. So if you think DIPAs are crazy bitter then yes. If you thoroughly enjoy them, then no. But if you're shooting for the bitterness of the average American IPA, then you're quite high. According to my calculations, if you're FG is 1.009 then your RBR is 1.1 (rounded from 1.099). If your OG is 1.070 and your IBUs are 70 that is a BU:GU ratio of 1. Your apparent attenuation at 1.009 is 86.4%. So although your calculations were a bit off (or else your numbers have changed and I didn't know about it), your RBR is still approaching DIPA levels. If you only let your FG drop to 1.014 your RBR is still 1.024, which is almost right in the middle of the average DIPA and the average AIPA.

When saying .5 is balanced he means "~0.5 is average balance--anything lower leans toward sweetness, and anything higher leans toward bitterness." So .5 is the perfectly balanced beer between malty sweetness and hoppy bitterness. You don't want .5 for an IPA. If you look at the chart (the second link), you can see that an average American IPA should be around .85, while the average English IPA is around .8. So even as far as IPAs go, things can differ.

If you were going to shoot for .85 with your 1.070 OG, you would either have to have an FG of 1.025 (which you clearly do not want to do for any reason whatsoever) or lower your IBUs to 54. If it was me personally (and this is such a small tweak you may not even notice), but I would shoot for 1.010 with 55 IBUs.

 

[douglasbarbin]

I really have to question the validity of a chart that shows a Dry Stout as being more relatively bitter than an IPA or American Barleywine. That hasn't been my perception, anyways.

Regardless, I think 70 IBU is fine for an American IPA if you want bitterness on the high side. 55 IBUs is right smack in the middle of the range for the style as defined by BJCP, and I'm guessing with this hop bill that he is trying to push the envelop for the style, not land safely in the middle. If a lot of the IBUs are coming from FWH and a whirlpool below 170 degrees, I think the perceived bitterness is not as high as the IBUs would indicate, so it's really not as much of an issue.

 

[joshesmusica]

I really have to question the validity of a chart that shows a Dry Stout as being more relatively bitter than an IPA or American Barleywine. That hasn't been my perception, anyways.

Regardless, I think 70 IBU is fine for an American IPA if you want bitterness on the high side. 55 IBUs is right smack in the middle of the range for the style as defined by BJCP, and I'm guessing with this hop bill that he is trying to push the envelop for the style, not land safely in the middle. If a lot of the IBUs are coming from FWH and a whirlpool below 170 degrees, I think the perceived bitterness is not as high as the IBUs would indicate, so it's really not as much of an issue.

very valid points about the FWH. but he's not getting any IBUs out of the whirlpool hops anymore. So he's still at 70 without that addition. as far as the chart goes, it's the average of the style according to the bjcp guidelines, not the guy's personal chart. so if you have an issue with the chart, i would say you likely also have an issue with the bjcp style guidelines. if you're taking your perception of commercial styles into account, it's likely that they're not strictly following bjcp guidelines. i've seen tons of commercial IPAs marketing as IPAs when in fact they would be labeled as DIPAs by the bjcp guidelines.

as far as the 70 IBUs being fine for an IPA, i can't disagree. it's just that 70 happens to be the uppermost level for IBUs for an AIPA according to BJCP style guidelines. but that's also why i prefer to at least take the bu:gu ratio into account, and then take that further by going with the aforementioned RBR. a 1.056 - 70 IBU beer will be very different than a 1.070 - 70 IBU beer. BUT a 1.070 - 70 IBU - 1.014 FG beer will still be different than a 1.070 - 70 IBU - 1.009 beer. at least as far as perceived bitterness is concerned.

perception, i think, is the key word here. i believe the OP said that he was a newbie to all grain. not sure if he's new to homebrew or craftbrew in general, but if he is, then he's likely not accustomed to intense hoppiness. i'm just trying to advise the guy to not go out and brew 5 gallons of something he's not gonna like. which is why i made the statement about if he likes DIPAs or not.

so OP if you're totally into really hoppy beers (and not just because it's such a cool fad, but that you really, really wanna drink 5 gallons of something you would have to put on a face in front of friends in order to "enjoy"), then go for the original plan and ignore my advice. if that's not the case, i would seriously consider looking to turn it down from an 11 to like an 8 or 9.

 

[GundyGang1]

very valid points about the FWH. but he's not getting any IBUs out of the whirlpool hops anymore. So he's still at 70 without that addition. as far as the chart goes, it's the average of the style according to the bjcp guidelines, not the guy's personal chart. so if you have an issue with the chart, i would say you likely also have an issue with the bjcp style guidelines. if you're taking your perception of commercial styles into account, it's likely that they're not strictly following bjcp guidelines. i've seen tons of commercial IPAs marketing as IPAs when in fact they would be labeled as DIPAs by the bjcp guidelines.

as far as the 70 IBUs being fine for an IPA, i can't disagree. it's just that 70 happens to be the uppermost level for IBUs for an AIPA according to BJCP style guidelines. but that's also why i prefer to at least take the bu:gu ratio into account, and then take that further by going with the aforementioned RBR. a 1.056 - 70 IBU beer will be very different than a 1.070 - 70 IBU beer. BUT a 1.070 - 70 IBU - 1.014 FG beer will still be different than a 1.070 - 70 IBU - 1.009 beer. at least as far as perceived bitterness is concerned.

perception, i think, is the key word here. i believe the OP said that he was a newbie to all grain. not sure if he's new to homebrew or craftbrew in general, but if he is, then he's likely not accustomed to intense hoppiness. i'm just trying to advise the guy to not go out and brew 5 gallons of something he's not gonna like. which is why i made the statement about if he likes DIPAs or not.

so OP if you're totally into really hoppy beers (and not just because it's such a cool fad, but that you really, really wanna drink 5 gallons of something you would have to put on a face in front of friends in order to "enjoy"), then go for the original plan and ignore my advice. if that's not the case, i would seriously consider looking to turn it down from an 11 to like an 8 or 9.

I appreciate that replies! I am not a newbie to craft beer by any means, love me some hops, but I am new to all grain brewing (this will be my 5-6 batch) and my first real IPA, had a pale that got away from me on the ABV side, but tasted good.

Anyway, I think of something like Heady that has a lot of IBU, and it is bitter, but it's so smooth and flavorful as well. I hate palette wrecker, I don't like really hoppy beers that seem to have a lot of the hops battering, which is why I have FWH, which is said to be a smoother bitterness, and whirlpool at 170f, which is supposed to impart more flavor. I do want it to be hoppy and bitter, but a balance of flavor and bitterness to go with that ABV and feel of the beer. That is why I simplified the hops during boil and put more at the FWH and whirlpool after rethinking it...

I will like it because I made it. It will be hoppy, but it won't be terrible. These hops are some gold standards for this type of brew and I've had many with them in it and I like each one, so it will definitely be something id drink, but maybe not with my friends who like miller.

All that said, keep the comments coming. I like where it is going from where it started. I picked up some good tips on the grain bill for drying things out and such and trying to understand hops is important, since most of what I like and drink has some, if not a lot, of hops in it.

Cheers!

 

[Michigan_Wolfman]

After looking at the original posting and reading the hops bill, I was like.... I don't even think Arrogant Bastard is that much of a hop bomb. But hey, who am I to judge? If you like it, brew it!

 

[m00ps]

I appreciate that replies! I am not a newbie to craft beer by any means, love me some hops, but I am new to all grain brewing (this will be my 5-6 batch) and my first real IPA, had a pale that got away from me on the ABV side, but tasted good.

Anyway, I think of something like Heady that has a lot of IBU, and it is bitter, but it's so smooth and flavorful as well. I hate palette wrecker, I don't like really hoppy beers that seem to have a lot of the hops battering, which is why I have FWH, which is said to be a smoother bitterness, and whirlpool at 170f, which is supposed to impart more flavor. I do want it to be hoppy and bitter, but a balance of flavor and bitterness to go with that ABV and feel of the beer. That is why I simplified the hops during boil and put more at the FWH and whirlpool after rethinking it...

I will like it because I made it. It will be hoppy, but it won't be terrible. These hops are some gold standards for this type of brew and I've had many with them in it and I like each one, so it will definitely be something id drink, but maybe not with my friends who like miller.

All that said, keep the comments coming. I like where it is going from where it started. I picked up some good tips on the grain bill for drying things out and such and trying to understand hops is important, since most of what I like and drink has some, if not a lot, of hops in it.

Cheers!

This is my approach to making IPAs to suit my tastes and it works great. One I made over the weekend has 17oz total hops, with 16 of those ounces going in after the 10min mark of the boil. I'm remaking a tweaked recipe from before, but the last one was incredible once it was kegged and hopped in the keg. More hop character than anything I've ever tried commercial or homebrew, even at the breweries themselves. Yet despite all that hop flavor, it is extremely drinkable and my Mom can even drink it. She doesnt even like beer.

So I say go for it and when it doubt, add more hops

 

[douglasbarbin]

So I say go for it and when it doubt, add more hops

Agreed. I've never had a brew where I thought after, "gee, I wish I hadn't added all those flavor/aroma hops".

 

[GundyGang1]

I brewed this a few nights ago. Didn't quite hit my OG, but gonna let it ride and see how it turns out. Fermenting at 70f and going strong.

 

[GundyGang1]

Gravity sitting at 1.002, so it should be dry. Hit 7.1%, so it's where I wanted it. Good flavor and smell in the samples. Added Dry hops of Amarillo, Citra, and Cascade yesterday and will let it sit in the primary for 5 days.

 

[GundyGang1]

The beer turned out great! Had a slower carbonation time, but the bitterness is good, if you like things bitter. Not killer, but it leaves you with a bitter aftertaste, but pleasant. Great mouthfeel, aromas, and flavor!