The [Horribly Unpopular] Soccer Thread

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

George Best would have been better than Pele anyway,..........If he could have stayed sober, and maybe turn up for work occasionally.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

"But all this replies just tell me what I somehow already knew: you guys still need to learn a bit about the sport."

And I really don't think you're the guy to teach us as nothing you've said impresses anyone that you possess an exceptional knowledge of the sport.

Every generation in sport has "their" superstar, currently it's Messi. 15 years from now... it will be somebody else. And that's not a knock on Messi, the guy is outstanding and a joy to watch.

And yes, I figured you weren't born when he played, by the way Pele is still alive last time I checked. Just saw him in the London Olympic Closing Ceremony.

Look, There's people who believe Mohamed Ali was the best boxer the world has seen and there's others who don't.

There's people who believe Wilt Chamberlin was the best basketball player ever, or Michael Jordon, or today Labron James. Just depends on what or who you grew up with or where you live.

And yes, you are a troll, or simply lack the understanding that each generation has it's "best" in sport and the media's job is to get you to believe today's star is better than a past star so you'll watch and read their articles.

I do think it's sad that you challenge a person's "manhood" implying he was fearful or weak as the reason he didn't do what you or your dad or grandfather "felt" he should have done. What's really funny is your using field size as a reason or rationale for your point. Let me know when they change the penalty area or goal size in a league and I might believe your point. The "pitch" no matter if it's small or big, is a rectangle with the same goals and PA. It's not like the Brazilian pitches were 50 meters wider and 25 meters longer than Spain's or Englands for example. Maybe check your FIFA laws of the game. The difference between minimum size and maximum size is 10 meters long and wide. So, while you feel you possess some superior knowledge of the game, your comments betray you. Yea, Pele was Pele because the fields in Brazil were 10 meters wider and 11 meters longer.......... So this really is the second argument I've never heard about why Pele was as good as he was... field size?

How old are you? I have this feeling I have studds that are much older than you.

First got to tell you that Brazilian fields were (some of them) 120 mts long when averge in Europe was 95 the international standards of field length as you know them today were different at the time and still are if you look at the FIFA web site you'll note that national fields can vary from 90 to 120 and international between 100 and 110 and width range from 45 to 90 (yes twice as much) national and 64 to 75 international. These rules had changes trough history. I wasn't a great player but I did travel a lot (thanks to my uncle actually) when I was a teen between Argentina Uruguay and Brazil and played in Brazilian fields, they are huge and I didn't read this some place I was there... the opposite can be tell about Uruguay their fields are tiny...
Pele was great but not the king... I think Garrincha was a lot better than Pele... and every player in the Brazilian team was great... Pele in club level he only got two libertadores in 20 year career... of course he haves three world cups two of then thanks to the magic of Garrincha (top scorer and MVP in world cup 62) and superb in the 58. In the 70 was Brazil the team an not just Pele.
If you ever play football at a Brazilian field you'll know better.
I know how to quote by the way the thing its I'm using my phone and I can't multi quote

 

[aygov]

Pele "the king" was never man enough to go to play to Europe, only Brazil and a little in the US when he was older I think he was great but a little overrated, Brazil national team had a lot of great players when he was around...

You do realize that in 1961 the President of Brazil had Pele declared a national treasure? It's kind of hard to go play in Europe when there is a law that says you can't leave the country.

It's alright if you think someone is better than Pele. Not everyone is going to agree on the best footballer in the world. What's not alright though, is saying he wasn't man enough to play in Europe when you have no idea of the circumstances behind it.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Haha Portland winning the cup almost a laughable prospect.

I don't know man. They seem to get crazy good when they play Cascadia rivals

 

[aygov]

George Best would have been better than Pele anyway,..........If he could have stayed sober, and maybe turn up for work occasionally.

Tbh even drunk he probably would have been better than most.

Such a waste of talent...

 

[Obliviousbrew]

You do realize that in 1961 the President of Brazil had Pele declared a national treasure? It's kind of hard to go play in Europe when there is a law that says you can't leave the country.

It's alright if you think someone is better than Pele. Not everyone is going to agree on the best footballer in the world. What's not alright though, is saying he wasn't man enough to play in Europe when you have no idea of the circumstances behind it.

that was 1969 seven years after his 2nd world cup... he had offers that he rejected himself confesed later in several interviews: at least Madrid Juventus and Manchester

 

[Obliviousbrew]

This been said and because I don´t want to -meant to troll I got to say that it was wrong to talk about Pele manhood (specially when everybody talked about it at the time nad it´s something that has been discussed) pulling a man card was wrong but I stand still about the original comment I think Pele didn´t have the courage to take the choice of going to Europe (he had lots of chances) because he was considered the king and didn´t wanted to be contested, like a reigning boxing champ that refuses to figth good boxers. I believe that this as a "soccer" thread and some incivility was allow. I really don´t like to argue actually but soccer really means something for me I don´t speak from the pedestal of knowing-it-all just from my experience of being raised in a football family in a football country. By the way I´m 32 not a kid I hacen´t played in years (only with friends on weekends) and wasn´t a great player neither but I do know the sport from the inside.
My apologizes if a touched a sensitve fiber... you´ll probably see more of this if I stay around but by no means I want to troll

 

[aygov]

that was 1969 seven years after his 2nd world cup... he had offers that he rejected himself confesed later in several interviews: at least Madrid Juventus and Manchester

So if everything I find says 1961, where do you get 1969?

 

[Pappers_]

Well Chicago is going to need to shake off that bad loss if they're going to look good on network tv in a (probably) sold-out red bull arena.

Also, Portland at Seattle on ESPN in front of 66k+ is going to be nuts, with Portland clinching the Cascadia Cup with a win or draw.

Then there's LA vs RSL for the number two spot in the west.

It's a good weekend to be a domestic soccer fan.

I know, it would have been great to go up a point or three over the damned Red Bull before the match on Saturday. On the other hand, this game means a lot now - the number two spot in the east. Haven't decided yet whether I'm watching at home or going to a watch party at a local pub.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

So if everything I find says 1961, where do you get 1969?

From fifa website...

http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/players/player=63869/index.html

it´s clearer in spanish

http://es.fifa.com/classicfootball/players/player=63869/index.html

 

[Punity]

I don't know man. They seem to get crazy good when they play Cascadia rivals

At home yea they get up. In our house I say no no.

 

[aygov]

From fifa website...

http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/players/player=63869/index.html

it´s clearer in spanish

http://es.fifa.com/classicfootball/players/player=63869/index.html

Since I don't read Spanish it's not exactly clearer for me.

The only reference to the national treasure status I found in the English link was the following:

J.B. Pinheiro, the Brazilian ambassador to the United Nations, was quoted as saying: "Pele played football for 22 years, and in that time he did more to promote world friendship and fraternity than any other ambassador anywhere". And who could contradict him? In warring Nigeria a ceasefire was declared when Pele played in Lagos in 1969. The President of Brazil declared him a "national treasure" to thwart any potential transfer to a European club. And in the port city of Santos, 19 November is forever 'Pele Day', to celebrate the anniversary of his 1,000th goal.

I quoted the whole paragraph so it doesn't look like I chopped a sentence out of context. The bolded bit is the relevant part and it doesn't say what year it happened.

I read the whole thing and either you're seeing something I'm not or you're misreading it.

 

[aygov]

I know, it would have been great to go up a point or three over the damned Red Bull before the match on Saturday. On the other hand, this game means a lot now - the number two spot in the east. Haven't decided yet whether I'm watching at home or going to a watch party at a local pub.

Agreed. It would have been nice to get a little breathing room, but I guess this is going to make Saturday's game all that much more dramatic...

 

[Obliviousbrew]

I read it in three languages dude the only three I can read... it is clear in two... it sucks that in english is not very well redacted, I doubt that english it is the original language of that particular post. I´ve seen data saying that he got it after world cup 62, I ´ve seen a 1967 a bunch of 1969 and even one that said the he was declared in 1958 for me is not clear, I tend to accept as you that that the most results I see around it is the truth, you have a lot of places that say 1961 its allrigth truth is that HE HAD the chances to play in Europe, the "national treasure" status didn´t stop him from playing for Cosmos, and how are you going -as a goverment- prevent that a person doesn´t emigrate specially when he is travelling all the time??? The national treasure thing doesn´t sound more than a populist manuever of a goverment more than an actual prohibition of transfer if the player wanted it... Pele asn´t forced to play for Brazil or in Brazil he choose to. And he did admit it.....

 

[Obliviousbrew]

I really want to stop discussing this...is not smart to discuss this kind of things, and certantly I´m not a troll... just hot headed... I really thing we shoul be discussing next match and not things that are a dead end actually. Pele statics and history are not very reliable especially in scored goals, this issue, the corauge of not taking the step to Europe are widely discuss between spanish, portuguese speaking fans and something that you can or can´t agree but this is not a comment out of the blue. Coming from a very diferent place I see it different... that´s it we propably wont agree never, but I do respect your comments about it I just don´t share them and is not going to get deeper than that, I don´t troll but stupids say stupid things as I´ve told in this thread. At least if someone is going to call me or my comments stupid he willl have to giveme the rigth to behave like one.

Anyway the important thing is:

There is anyof you guys going to watch Madrid-Barcelona this weekend? and what matchfrom your league will you recommend me to watch this weekend?

 

[aygov]

I read it in three languages dude the only three I can read... it is clear in two... it sucks that in english is not very well redacted, I doubt that english it is the original language of that particular post. I´ve seen data saying that he got it after world cup 62, I ´ve seen a 1967 a bunch of 1969 and even one that said the he was declared in 1958 for me is not clear, I tend to accept as you that that the most results I see around it is the truth, you have a lot of places that say 1961 its allrigth truth is that HE HAD the chances to play in Europe, the "national treasure" status didn´t stop him from playing for Cosmos, and how are you going -as a goverment- prevent that a person doesn´t emigrate specially when he is travelling all the time??? The national treasure thing doesn´t sound more than a populist manuever of a goverment more than an actual prohibition of transfer if the player wanted it... Pele asn´t forced to play for Brazil or in Brazil he choose to. And he did admit it.....

I guess it is a pretty muddy point.

That aside if you think him not playing in Europe diminishes his greatness then so be it. I don't have a dog in the "Best player ever!" fight because I think declaring anything the best is usually impossible. I mean how can you compare Pele to anyone in the modern game considering football is so much different then it was back then. It's all up for interpretation with heaps of opinion thrown in. There have been many great players but trying to say that one of them is unequivocally the best ever is ridiculous.

 

[Punity]

Pele=Goat

There I solved it for you.

 

[lgilmore]

"And he did admit it....."

And your point is about his manhood? Kid, no matter how you serve this up, it is a silly argument to make. You've implied Pele refused to play in europe cause he was affraid of european players? How would you explain his success in world cup play then? Didn't he play against them then?

Also wiki has him declared as a national treasure in 1961 which would make sense as he was entering his prime... He basically played his career for Santos 18 of his 20 years. This is probably what Messi is going to do as well with his club. I think you may confuse a sense of loyalty with a lack of manhood, which again, how old are you?

The other factor that is more plausable than lack of manhood? Money. I'm sure if enough money was offered, he would have been there, as the last two years with the Cosmos were simply too big of a paycheck to turn down. What was the cost of living in Brazil compared to any EU country at the time? Do you think they were the same or waaay a part? Did a dollar go farther in Brazil than in a EU country (pick any one)? Why do you think Beckham stayed in America instead of signing with that French team? Something about a 36% tax bracket in the states vs. a 75% bracket coming to France?

While again the childish notion that a lack of manhood kept Pele from Europe, it's highly unlikely. It may be just fluffing your chest feathers to feel better about something else.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

totally agree on that Pele or Maradona or Messi who is the greatest it´s an impossible comparision different moments rules and way to tacticly play the game. I do enjoy Pele I just think Garrincha it´s better but hey that´s only my opinion and that´s it.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

"And he did admit it....."

And your point is about his manhood? Kid, no matter how you serve this up, it is a silly argument to make. You've implied Pele refused to play in europe cause he was affraid of european players? How would you explain his success in world cup play then? Didn't he play against them then?

Dude If you care to read above post and not just the first thing maybe you´ll have different questions, and again it was wrong from me to pull a "man card" on him... again I tough this been a soccer thread it was a little more permisive and found out that is not... I just think diffrently and that´s it. Accept it, I really don´t care if you agree or not. He was a great pleayer in a great team but I don´t think we was the best in the three national teams that got the world cup.

 

[aygov]

Opinions are like..... I'll let you finish the sentence.

 

[lgilmore]

Dude? really "Dude?" c'mon am I debating with someone younger than my shoes here?


"again I tough this been a soccer thread it was a little more permisive and found out that is not"

Because those here didn't embrace your theory on why Pele didn't play in Europe? No one embraced it because it was nonsense and to believe it was nonsense too.

Look Pele scored in 77 goals in the 92 international matches played, Messi so far has 28 in 73 matches. So he has 19 internationals to score 49 goals to catch up and match Pele. I think Messi is probably the greatest attacking player in this era. But just from a production basis, he has a very difficult task to catch Pele. So I guess it's hard for me to not think your comments were silly?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Look Pele scored in 77 goals in the 92 international matches played, Messi so far has 28 in 73 matches. So he has 19 internationals to score 49 goals to catch up and match Pele.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I know, it would have been great to go up a point or three over the damned Red Bull before the match on Saturday. On the other hand, this game means a lot now - the number two spot in the east. Haven't decided yet whether I'm watching at home or going to a watch party at a local pub.

Hmm... MLS Editors aren't liking Chicago's chances. Three of them picked NYRB to win and two called it a draw.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

The Pele/Messi stats are very nice, but stats don't really have as much relevance in s#ccer as in other sports. They are always fun to look at, but don't tell half the story.

 

[aygov]

The Pele/Messi stats are very nice, but stats don't really have as much relevance in s#ccer as in other sports. They are always fun to look at, but don't tell half the story.

This.

Hmm... MLS Editors aren't liking Chicago's chances. Three of them picked NYRB to win and two called it a draw.

As a fire fan I don't like them either. We've completely lost the momentum and to go Red Bull Arena and hope to get it back and get a result... it might be a tough ask.

 

[aygov]

There is anyof you guys going to watch Madrid-Barcelona this weekend? and what matchfrom your league will you recommend me to watch this weekend?

From MLS I will be watching the Fire v. Red Bulls.

From the EPL I'll be watching West Ham v. Arsenal.

 

[Punity]

And thats why you suck Portland

 

[Pappers_]

Hmm... MLS Editors aren't liking Chicago's chances. Three of them picked NYRB to win and two called it a draw.

Woooohooooo! Take that, so-called experts!

I didn't actually get to watch the game but will be watching it tonight

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Woooohooooo! Take that, so-called experts!

I didn't actually get to watch the game but will be watching it tonight

haha!!! EXPERTS!!! I don't know what the American "Experts" are like, but I'm guessing they are probably the same as in the UK.....Yes, they are ex pros and managers, but when it comes to predicting a game, they should look back on their own careers more often, and try to remember just how much factors like team spirit and individual flashes of brilliance or crappidity can completely turn a match on it's head.