The [Horribly Unpopular] Soccer Thread

[Reno_eNVy]

"fraid that's just something some leagues have to live with. Players only have short careers and need to follow the money and the experience of higher levels. It will get better over time. Ya just can't rush these things.

It's true but that just seems to be where people immediately jump. They've done it for Brek Shea, Teal Bunbury, Omar Gonzalez.... the list goes on. There needs to be a core group of youngsters that dedicate themselves to the betterment of the American game rather than a higher paycheck (and likely less PT.)

But at least sometimes it works out.... Tim Ream (good riddance) went to the Premiership and later got relegated, so that's not too bad.

 

[Pappers_]

The playing time is a key issue, I think, Reno. But I have no problem with the very best US players playing in the very best international leagues, as long as they get playing time and develop. And play on the US national team!

 

[Pappers_]

Here's a cheer for Sweden today! Would love to have both Denmark and Sweden make out of their groups - an all-Scandinavian finals! Woot!

 

[aygov]

It's true but that just seems to be where people immediately jump. They've done it for Brek Shea, Teal Bunbury, Omar Gonzalez.... the list goes on. There needs to be a core group of youngsters that dedicate themselves to the betterment of the American game rather than a higher paycheck (and likely less PT.)

But at least sometimes it works out.... Tim Ream (good riddance) went to the Premiership and later got relegated, so that's not too bad.

It's sort of a paradoxical setup that is developing here. On one hand it seems like MLS and MLS teams are willing to shell out big style for aging has beens from European leagues whereas it's pretty well recognized that if you're a young talented US player you'll make more cash in Europe...

Perhaps the MLS might want to spend some more cash to keep the bright US talent in our league rather than using it to line David Beckham's already overflowing pockets?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

aygov, good points.

But they made alterations to the Designated Player rule for this season and on. There is more of an incentive to sign young players as DPs seeing as the younger the player, the less they count against the salary cap.

Designated Player over the age of 23 will carry a salary budget charge of $350,000, unless the player joins his club in the middle of the season, in which case his budget charge will be $175,000.

Designated Player 21-23 years old counts as $200,000 against the club’s salary budget.

Designated Player 20 years old or younger counts as $150,000 against the club’s salary budget.

The budget charge for the midseason signing of a young Designated Player (23 years old and younger) is $150,000 and this amount cannot be lowered with allocation funds.

Clubs will not have to buy the third DP roster slot to accommodate Designated Players 23 years old and younger.

Age of player is determined by year (not date) of birth.

 

[aygov]

That is good start and hopefully it will evolve from there.

Unfortunately if it ends up in a bidding war I think the MLS will always lose. There is so much silly money flying around in Europe now....

 

[FlyDoctor]

Think about the Dutch though - their league is not the greatest - yet their players are (arguably, very arguably...) some of the best the world has to offer. I'm not sure one needs a good league to produce good players.

 

[BrewKnurd]

It's true but that just seems to be where people immediately jump. They've done it for Brek Shea, Teal Bunbury, Omar Gonzalez.... the list goes on. There needs to be a core group of youngsters that dedicate themselves to the betterment of the American game rather than a higher paycheck (and likely less PT.)

But at least sometimes it works out.... Tim Ream (good riddance) went to the Premiership and later got relegated, so that's not too bad.

I have to agree with the point Pappers brought up... doesn't the best american players playing in the best league they can count as being "for the betterment of the American game"? I mean, I guess it depends on how you define the American game. If you mean pro soccer in america, then no, players going overseas does not directly aid soccer in america. But if you mean the national team, I think its hard to argue that a player going to a high level european league and getting playing time isn't better for their development than staying in the MLS at this point. Now, obviously going over there and sitting doesn't help at all.

As for the MLS shelling out money for big name, albeit over the hill, European stars... I'm all for it. They can teach the young 'uns.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I have to agree with the point Pappers brought up... doesn't the best american players playing in the best league they can count as being "for the betterment of the American game"? I mean, I guess it depends on how you define the American game. If you mean pro soccer in america, then no, players going overseas does not directly aid soccer in america. But if you mean the national team, I think its hard to argue that a player going to a high level european league and getting playing time isn't better for their development than staying in the MLS at this point. Now, obviously going over there and sitting doesn't help at all.

As for the MLS shelling out money for big name, albeit over the hill, European stars... I'm all for it. They can teach the young 'uns.

Fair enough. But my train of thought is more long term:

- Keep the stars in MLS (immediately better for MLS)
- Gain international attention from strong showings at friendlies and minor tournaments (WFC, Emirates Cup, etc)
- Keep expanding and raise the cap. That's more spots for current stars and young sleepers and more money to keep them in the country. Also, more money to bring in the big-timers.
- A larger pool of improved players in the country not only creates a better national team on paper but creates familiarity between players since they'd see each other all the time in the league. Not only that but it allows for regulars on the USMNT to develop a true American-style game. It's slowly happening, though. And it's similar to how MLS works: hard, physical, sometimes rough play but minimal to zero diving or cheap crap.

Over time, through attention, improvement of the game, improved attendance, and more country-wide soccer exposure (it just keeps getting better. Just look at the attendance for the recent friendlies) we'll create a league that just pumps out super stars.

It's a long journey ahead but it's doable with more money and work. And that includes the supporters as well. It's your job to spread the love of the sport!!

 

[BrewKnurd]

Fair enough. But my train of thought is more long term:

- Keep the stars in MLS (immediately better for MLS)
- Gain international attention from strong showings at friendlies and minor tournaments (WFC, Emirates Cup, etc)
- Keep expanding and raise the cap. That's more spots for current stars and young sleepers and more money to keep them in the country. Also, more money to bring in the big-timers.
- A larger pool of improved players in the country not only creates a better national team on paper but creates familiarity between players since they'd see each other all the time in the league. Not only that but it allows for regulars on the USMNT to develop a true American-style game. It's slowly happening, though. And it's similar to how MLS works: hard, physical, sometimes rough play but minimal to zero diving or cheap crap.

Over time, through attention, improvement of the game, improved attendance, and more country-wide soccer exposure (it just keeps getting better. Just look at the attendance for the recent friendlies) we'll create a league that just pumps out super stars.

It's a long journey ahead but it's doable with more money and work. And that includes the supporters as well. It's your job to spread the love of the sport!!

I certainly see your points, and I think the main thing is that a strong MLS is certainly good for the US soccer culture in general. And I'm glad that I'm not in charge of how things work, because I'd surely F things up. But I would just argue that the growth and development of the league isn't hampered much by losing a handful of high level american pros to Europe. Meanwhile if the development of a handful of high level american pros is hampered by staying in a league that isn't quite at their level does significantly hamper the national team. By all means, as long as you can grow in the MLS, do it. But I just don't believe that say, dempsey, would be the player he is now if he had stayed in the MLS.

As for the development of an american style based on hard work and minimal cheap crap... you don't feel that that's already developed as the american style? I feel like that's what the USMNT has been known for ever since they actually started making it to WCs again.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I certainly see your points, and I think the main thing is that a strong MLS is certainly good for the US soccer culture in general. And I'm glad that I'm not in charge of how things work, because I'd surely F things up. But I would just argue that the growth and development of the league isn't hampered much by losing a handful of high level american pros to Europe. Meanwhile if the development of a handful of high level american pros is hampered by staying in a league that isn't quite at their level does significantly hamper the national team. By all means, as long as you can grow in the MLS, do it. But I just don't believe that say, dempsey, would be the player he is now if he had stayed in the MLS.

As for the development of an american style based on hard work and minimal cheap crap... you don't feel that that's already developed as the american style? I feel like that's what the USMNT has been known for ever since they actually started making it to WCs again.

I like the way you think. And yeah, seems the "club or country" conundrum will never cease.

But yeah, we as supports have been aware of the American-style since the days of Alexi Lalas' goatee and denim kits.... but is it known world-wide that the Yanks play a clean, hard game?

 

[BrewKnurd]

I like the way you think. And yeah, seems the "club or country" conundrum will never cease.

Well, hopefully someday it will. I don't think its unreasonable that in the next 10-20 years, the MLS can be an absolute top notch league. And then there's no conundrum. Am I being hopelessly optimistic? Perhaps. But I'm ok with that.

But yeah, we as supports have been aware of the American-style since the days of Alexi Lalas' goatee and denim kits.... but is it known world-wide that the Yanks play a clean, hard game?

Valid question. I dunno. I assume you're asking about is it known to the general soccer viewing public the world round. And I would guess many of them have never bothered to watch a US game, so I guess probably not.

A friend of a friend on facebook was making snide comments about the US v Antigua Barbuda game, saying "at least England can point to their next opponent (France) on a map." What I didn't think to say at the time, and really wish I had, was "True, but at least one team in the America/A&B game made it out of the group stage at the WC......"

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Well, hopefully someday it will. I don't think its unreasonable that in the next 10-20 years, the MLS can be an absolute top notch league. And then there's no conundrum. Am I being hopelessly optimistic? Perhaps. But I'm ok with that.

Hopelessly optimistic is my favorite kind of optimistic.

A friend of a friend on facebook was making snide comments about the US v Antigua Barbuda game, saying "at least England can point to their next opponent (France) on a map." What I didn't think to say at the time, and really wish I had, was "True, but at least one team in the America/A&B game made it out of the group stage at the WC......"

Snap, sir... snap!

And I can find A&B no problem. The Caribbean may be a big archipelago but there are only so many islands large enough to be sovereign.

 

[DregAddict]

Come on guys, England did make it out of the group in WC 2010. Granted they did come out 2nd in the group behind the US, and then got trounced 4-1 by Germany in the round of 16!! So I still think it's fair game to razz on the England v France matchup.

As an interesting side note, I played at UNLV with a guy that made some appearances for the Antigua and Barbuda team. His name is Kelly Frederick, and I actually remember him missing a week or so of practice here and there to go off and play an early round WC qualifier.

He was a very good player. Probably our best striker for the two years he was with our team(he was a JC transfer). He actually made the all western region team during his senior year(my sophomore year). And that team included players that were on some top collegiate teams(UCLA, U-dub, Stanford, university of Portland, UNM, USD, etc.)

So somebody ragging on the A&B team shouldn't do so, because I have first hand experience with a very good player from Antigua that only managed to play a half-dozen or so games for their national team.

 

[BrewKnurd]

Come on guys, England did make it out of the group in WC 2010. Granted they did come out 2nd in the group behind the US, and then got trounced 4-1 by Germany in the round of 16!! So I still think it's fair game to razz on the England v France matchup.

Well fine, my brain changed history. Oops.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Well fine, my brain changed history. Oops.

I was thinking the same thing... guess I figured they got beat so bad in the knockouts they may as well have not made it out of the groups =)



But Dreg, who was ragging on A&B? I thought they played a fantastic match considering.

 

[BrewKnurd]

But Dreg, who was ragging on A&B? I thought they played a fantastic match considering.

I assumed he was referring to my facebook friend of a friend.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I was thinking the same thing... guess I figured they got beat so bad in the knockouts they may as well have not made it out of the groups =)

They were not good enough for sure, but that disallowed equaliser was a huge factor in the way the game continued. Had it been allowed the outcome could (possibly) have been closer. The scoreline does not always tell the whole story, especially in knock-out games.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

They were not good enough for sure, but that disallowed equaliser was a huge factor in the way the game continued. Had it been allowed the outcome could (possibly) have been closer. The scoreline does not always tell the whole story, especially in knock-out games.

This is quite true. That was around that time people started demanded FIFA do something.

I may be crazy, but have there been extra officials at the EURO 2012 matches? I could swear I saw non-flagged officials at the end-lines intently watching the run of play. Is this a trial run for a solution that doesn't involve bringing in technology?


EDIT: Yup, there are definitely end-line officials.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Also, holy hell! I tuned in to Greece vs Czech Rep at the 10th minute.... it's already 0-2 to the Czech.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

This is quite true. That was around that time people started demanded FIFA do something.

I may be crazy, but have there been extra officials at the EURO 2012 matches? I could swear I saw non-flagged officials at the end-lines intently watching the run of play. Is this a trial run for a solution that doesn't involve bringing in technology?


EDIT: Yup, there are definitely end-line officials.

They are starting to test the technology now. They are experimenting with some clubs in England, apparently with something in the balls. Yes, FIFA have something in their balls at last!

 

[BrewKnurd]

I may be crazy, but have there been extra officials at the EURO 2012 matches? I could swear I saw non-flagged officials at the end-lines intently watching the run of play. Is this a trial run for a solution that doesn't involve bringing in technology?


EDIT: Yup, there are definitely end-line officials.

I think it was one of the end line officials that caught lampards knee to the back in the CL semifinal, wasn't it?

 

[DregAddict]

I assumed he was referring to my facebook friend of a friend.

Yeah, that was my point. Sorry I didn't mean to suggest that anyone here was putting the Antigua team down.

About the goal line officials, I've definitely noticed them. They're actually pretty funny when two guys are battling for a ball near the endline. The official is right there only a few yards from the action, bent at the knees, watching with ultra concentration.

Does anybody know where the new officials authority ends? They obviously wear a headset to communicate with the center official. But in addition to making goal line decisions, do they also make endline in-or-out decisions, goal kick v corner kick decisions, call in fouls to the center official, etc?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

About the goal line officials, I've definitely noticed them. They're actually pretty funny when two guys are battling for a ball near the endline. The official is right there only a few yards from the action, bent at the knees, watching with ultra concentration.

Does anybody know where the new officials authority ends? They obviously wear a headset to communicate with the center official. But in addition to making goal line decisions, do they also make endline in-or-out decisions, goal kick v corner kick decisions, call in fouls to the center official, etc?

HA! That's when I first noticed the endline official: sweet footwork and boxing out in the 18 with the official staring them down

I think the endline officials jurisdiction is action in the 18: in/out of bounds (and, thus, corner vs goal kick), fouls in the box, goal determination. I may be wrong but that's what I've noticed.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

The referee makes all the decisions based on the advice of the other officials. He can ignore them if he's stupid enough.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Hmmm... okay so it's almost game-time. Time to predict another USMNT match! (Just like Paul the Octopus. RIP you sweet invertebrate.)

vs

Guatemala 1 - 2 USA

The Yanks are going to have a hard time keeping their attack contained when Guatemala is known for flopping if you breathe on them wrong. Same applies for the American attack: too strong going forward and Guatemala draws fouls so the US is held to two.

I hope I'm wrong and the Yanks run up the score but I'm going middle-ground.

 

[BrewKnurd]

The Yanks are going to have a hard time keeping their attack contained when Guatemala is known for flopping if you breathe on them wrong. Same applies for the American attack: too strong going forward and Guatemala draws fouls so the US is held to two.

I hope I'm wrong and the Yanks run up the score but I'm going middle-ground.

I am just so bitter about the PPV situation. I hope traffic/integrated sports lose a boatload of money on this.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

First Row Sports

Put it in the google so you can put the soccer in your face.

 

[dwarven_stout]

Ugh. That was everything a match in GC should be expected to be. The ref had a good first half before playing most all of the second.


And OMG Altidore.

 

[DregAddict]

Yeah apparently you can foul almost every time you get beat, roll around like you've been shot every time you get touched, stand in front of every free kick, complain on every call you don't get, and still only get 2 yellow cards.

Altidore literally scored on a play that should have been continued for advantage(the goalie might have saved it if the whistle hadn't blown), and the Guatemalan player still didn't get a yellow for the foul on dempsey at the top of the box. If you're going to stop that play, you better ****ing book the guy. And to make it worse, Fabian Johnson committed a foul at almost the same spot that led to their goal, and of course he got booked.

Also, to be fair to Jozy, he definitely got brought down in the box on one play. Of course the Guatemalan feed didn't show a replay.