The Barrel Mimic Experiment

[bmd2k1]

Barrel. View attachment 619537

Dig the barrel...gotta small one myself for recent bday [emoji111] Took a couple days to seal.

 

[bmd2k1]

My experience with oak spirals is that they are much like chips. Not quite as bad, but still too fast and too thin to provide adequate depth of flavor. I really wish I could send you all some Barrel aged mead so that you could appreciate how different the profile is. Indescribably better.

How long do u typically barrel age it? Cheers [emoji111]

 

[bmd2k1]

If you're looking for good barrels and solid products go to this website. I have 3 barrels from them (2 five gallon barrels and 1 one gallon) I have three Mead flavors I love that I brew often and I age them in my barrels, it makes all the difference. Prices are very reasonable and they will even laser engrave anything on the barrel for free.

http://www.barrelsonline.com/BrowseProducts.aspx

How many uses do ya get out of a barrel?

What's you typical aging time?

Cheers [emoji111]

 

[loveofrose]

I age it until it’s done! It really depends on the mead. It can range from 1 month to 6 months.

Barrel can be used for up to 75 years providing they do not sour. Over time, they become more neutral and impart less flavor.

 

[bmd2k1]

I age it until it’s done! It really depends on the mead. It can range from 1 month to 6 months.

Barrel can be used for up to 75 years providing they do not sour. Over time, they become more neutral and impart less flavor.

Does ABV affect amount of flavor drawn out of the barrel?

 

[loveofrose]

Does ABV affect amount of flavor drawn out of the barrel?

It affects the speed of which the flavor is drawn out, but you can get equal flavor with more time.

 

[bmd2k1]

It affects the speed of which the flavor is drawn out, but you can get equal flavor with more time.

When barrel aging:

- do u just let it sit the entire time or agitate it periodically?

- once aging is complete I assume u rack it into bottles etc? (Or do ya just serve right from the barrel)

- what room temp range are you keeping the barrels at? Is there much evaporation?

Thanks & Cheers [emoji111]

 

[loveofrose]

When barrel aging:

- do u just let it sit the entire time or agitate it periodically?

- once aging is complete I assume u rack it into bottles etc? (Or do ya just serve right from the barrel)

- what room temp range are you keeping the barrels at? Is there much evaporation?

Thanks & Cheers [emoji111]

1. It sits without agitation.

2. Serving from the barrel only works for a crowd. Airspace is bad for barrels. I typically rack to a carboy for clearing, then bottle.

3. My barrels are in a garage so the temperatures range from 30-98 F. I follow the same idea as whiskey aging. Low temps pull mead out of the oak and warm duck the mead into the oak. This flux helps the mead get the full range of oak flavor.

4. There is some angels share. I tend to top off every 2-4 weeks depending on temperatures.

 

[bmd2k1]

...and now u know the Rest of the story...

https://vinepair.com/wine-101/wine-aged-oak-history-lesson/

 

[bmd2k1]

1. It sits without agitation.

2. Serving from the barrel only works for a crowd. Airspace is bad for barrels. I typically rack to a carboy for clearing, then bottle.

3. My barrels are in a garage so the temperatures range from 30-98 F. I follow the same idea as whiskey aging. Low temps pull mead out of the oak and warm duck the mead into the oak. This flux helps the mead get the full range of oak flavor.

4. There is some angels share. I tend to top off every 2-4 weeks depending on temperatures.

When u rack from barrel to carboy...do u siphon out the top hole or use the spigot?

 

[loveofrose]

I connect the spigot to a tube and run the tube into the new vessel. Turn it on a come back later!

 

[FunkyMunk]

I tend to top off every 2-4 weeks depending on temperatures.

Sounds like a lot of topping off. What do you top off with?

 

[loveofrose]

Extra mead of course! That’s why the batch is bigger than I need.

 

[bmd2k1]

Extra mead of course! That’s why the batch is bigger than I need.

Do ya hit ur mead with any chemicals b4 barrel aging? (Same thing 4 trials?)

 

[loveofrose]

Nope.

 

[bmd2k1]

Nope.

[emoji111]

 

[bmd2k1]

Some interesting info on oak barrel aging & size of the barrel... interesting that smaller the barrel the quicker the results...

https://redheadoakbarrels.com/why-do-small-oak-barrels-age-liquor-faster/

 

[loveofrose]

2 Week Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

First, we must identify the components of a true barrel aged flavor.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Oaky, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Of course, it needs more oak for a fuller flavor and body.
-Body: Improved but needs more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Very trace oak, but musty. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body but very little.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky (slightly less than barrel), honey, sweet
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more.
-Body: Improved, similar to barrel at this point.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, but it’s a bit strange. No oak noticeable. Honey. Tannins definitely present. It would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Taste like I combined them. Tart fruit flavor is still at odds with this mead. The vanilla makes it better by providing a counterpoint and some oak, but still off.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for this purpose at all. It is more of a fruit Tannin enhancer rather than a Barrel Mimic.
-Combined Liquid tannins maybe useful in fruit, but is just strange here.

My take away at this point is to combine Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla as a suitable Barrel Mimic. For a fruit mead, maybe add Liquid Tannin Fruit as well. I don’t imagine the Liquid Tannins will improve further, but the Xoakers should.

Keep in mind this is 2 weeks in. My barrel aging sweet spot is generally somewhere between 2-4 months depending on temperature fluctuations. I like big oak, but prefer to stop before bourbon notes become apparent.

Cheers until the next time point in 2 weeks!

 

[NeverDie]

2 Week Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

First, we must identify the components of a true barrel aged flavor.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Oaky, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Of course, it needs more oak for a fuller flavor and body.
-Body: Improved but needs more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Very trace oak, but musty. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body but very little.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky (slightly less than barrel), honey, sweet
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more.
-Body: Improved, similar to barrel at this point.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, but it’s a bit strange. No oak noticeable. Honey. Tannins definitely present. It would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Taste like I combined them. Tart fruit flavor is still at odds with this mead. The vanilla makes it better by providing a counterpoint and some oak, but still off.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for this purpose at all. It is more of a fruit Tannin enhancer rather than a Barrel Mimic.
-Combined Liquid tannins maybe useful in fruit, but is just strange here.

My take away at this point is to combine Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla as a suitable Barrel Mimic. For a fruit mead, maybe add Liquid Tannin Fruit as well. I don’t imagine the Liquid Tannins will improve further, but the Xoakers should.

Keep in mind this is 2 weeks in. My barrel aging sweet spot is generally somewhere between 2-4 months depending on temperature fluctuations. I like big oak, but prefer to stop before bourbon notes become apparent.

Cheers until the next time point in 2 weeks!

What changed? In your OP you described the oak cubes as "Tried and true". Now they seem to be worthless.

 

[Maylar]

What changed? In your OP you described the oak cubes as "Tried and true". Now they seem to be worthless.

It takes months to extract from cubes and it's only been 2 weeks. It'll change as time goes on. I'm interested to know how much time is required.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@loveofrose
Did you weigh the cubes?
Did you boil them?

Oak flavor varies by product, nationality, toast level, toast method, preparation, time/amount ... Lots of variables.

 

[loveofrose]

What changed? In your OP you described the oak cubes as "Tried and true". Now they seem to be worthless.

At this time point, they are inferior to Xoakers. The “best” is actually the “best of what you have”. Xoakers and Liquid Tannin didn’t exist before. Also, I stated the cubes were lacking in the OP.

 

[loveofrose]

@loveofrose
Did you weigh the cubes?
Did you boil them?

Oak flavor varies by product, nationality, toast level, toast method, preparation, time/amount ... Lots of variables.

Dosing was done based on surface area.
No boiling, just drop them in.

I purchased my cubes from morewinemaking. I haven’t tasted a lot of flavor variation in the 8 years or so I’ve bought their stuff. YMMV

 

[RPh_Guy]

YMMV

It does vary in my experience.
I use these https://morewinemaking.com/products/oak-cubes-french-medium.html , and smoke is one of the first things I get (in a couple days). I've only used them in 3 batches so far.

 

[NeverDie]

At this time point, they are inferior to Xoakers. The “best” is actually the “best of what you have”. Xoakers and Liquid Tannin didn’t exist before. Also, I stated the cubes were lacking in the OP.

The Xoakers are 1" diameter, if I'm not mistaken. What are the dimensions on your oak cubes? The LD Carlson oak cubes are maybe roughly 1/4 the volume of a Xoaker, but I realize those aren't what you are testing. I ask because if your cubes are showing nothing compared to the Xoakers, I'm guessing they perhaps have bigger volume? Or maybe not--maybe it's just the way that Stavin prepares them compared to the way Xoakers are prepared.

 

[bmd2k1]

2 Week Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

First, we must identify the components of a true barrel aged flavor.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Oaky, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Of course, it needs more oak for a fuller flavor and body.
-Body: Improved but needs more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Very trace oak, but musty. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body but very little.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky (slightly less than barrel), honey, sweet
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more.
-Body: Improved, similar to barrel at this point.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, but it’s a bit strange. No oak noticeable. Honey. Tannins definitely present. It would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Taste like I combined them. Tart fruit flavor is still at odds with this mead. The vanilla makes it better by providing a counterpoint and some oak, but still off.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for this purpose at all. It is more of a fruit Tannin enhancer rather than a Barrel Mimic.
-Combined Liquid tannins maybe useful in fruit, but is just strange here.

My take away at this point is to combine Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla as a suitable Barrel Mimic. For a fruit mead, maybe add Liquid Tannin Fruit as well. I don’t imagine the Liquid Tannins will improve further, but the Xoakers should.

Keep in mind this is 2 weeks in. My barrel aging sweet spot is generally somewhere between 2-4 months depending on temperature fluctuations. I like big oak, but prefer to stop before bourbon notes become apparent.

Cheers until the next time point in 2 weeks!

Thanks -- good stuff! [emoji111]

Look forward to your future updates [emoji57]

 

[loveofrose]

1 Month Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Strong Oak, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Oak is approaching balance. More vanilla than last time.
-Body: Much improved but needs a wee bit more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Light vanilla. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky but smells hollow compared to Barrel, honey, sweet. Some mustyness.
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more. Lacks the depth of a barrel.
-Body: Improved, hollow compared to barrel.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, lot less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, this has integrated quite nicely. No oak noticeable but it’s quite pleasant. Honey. Tannins definitely present. I take back saying it would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Nice vanilla with a bit of tartness. Now that some more integration time has occurred, this is way better together than apart. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1. Still lacks everything compared to a barrel.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2. Still lacks everything compared to a barrel.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for a Barrel Mimic. It is suitable for adding an acidity however.
-Combined Liquid tannins is actually quite good now. It just doesn’t resemble a barrel.

I still contend using both Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla would make for a suitable Barrel Mimic, but I would triple the number of Xoakers I add. It’s nowhere even close to the quality of a barrel at this time point, but far better than adding nothing.

The Fruit Enhancer Liquid Tannin actually serves better for providing a rather neutral acidity not attributable to any fruit. That is definitely going in the tool box!

At 1 month, all of these are improvements over no oak, but the barrel is far superior at this point. I may need to retest with a combination of treatments to really get to a barrels level. I’m thinking of adding more Xoakers with the Liquid Vanilla. We will see. I feel 2 months is all that will be necessary for the barrel.

Cheers until the next time point in 1 month!

 

[bmd2k1]

1 Month Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Strong Oak, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Oak is approaching balance. More vanilla than last time.
-Body: Much improved but needs a wee bit more time.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet
-Taste: Light vanilla. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins.
-Body: Some increased body.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky but smells hollow compared to Barrel, honey, sweet. Some mustyness.
-Taste: Trace vanilla, honey, smoke. Tannins present but needs more. Lacks the depth of a barrel.
-Body: Improved, hollow compared to barrel.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, lot less than barrel at this time.

Fruit Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, this has integrated quite nicely. No oak noticeable but it’s quite pleasant. Honey. Tannins definitely present. I take back saying it would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Nice vanilla with a bit of tartness. Now that some more integration time has occurred, this is way better together than apart. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.

Takeaway

It’s hard to describe oak flavor. While vanilla is one component, it’s so much more than that. I could get into chemical compounds, but let’s keep it simple. I get 3 real components of a barrel flavor:
1. Vanilla
2. Enhancing flavors (smoke, vanilla-like compounds that give a more satisfying sensation than pure vanilla)
3. Tannins (body, mouthfeel, thickness)

With the above criteria, I rate each as follows:
-Cubes lack everything compared to a barrel.
-Xoakers give 2 and some 3, but lack 1. Still lacks everything compared to a barrel.
-Liquid Tannin Vanilla gives 1 and some 3, but lacks 2. Still lacks everything compared to a barrel.
-Liquid Tannin Fruit is just not suitable for a Barrel Mimic. It is suitable for adding an acidity however.
-Combined Liquid tannins is actually quite good now. It just doesn’t resemble a barrel.

I still contend using both Xoakers and Liquid Tannin Vanilla would make for a suitable Barrel Mimic, but I would triple the number of Xoakers I add. It’s nowhere even close to the quality of a barrel at this time point, but far better than adding nothing.

The Fruit Enhancer Liquid Tannin actually serves better for providing a rather neutral acidity not attributable to any fruit. That is definitely going in the tool box!

At 1 month, all of these are improvements over no oak, but the barrel is far superior at this point. I may need to retest with a combination of treatments to really get to a barrels level. I’m thinking of adding more Xoakers with the Liquid Vanilla. We will see. I feel 2 months is all that will be necessary for the barrel.

Cheers until the next time point in 1 month!

Good stuff - thanks for efforts & updates!

Cheers [emoji111]

 

[loveofrose]

2 Month Taste Comparison

Tasting are performed side by side with exactly the same glass type (glencairn) at room temperature.

Barrel Aged Mead
-Nose: Strong Oak, honey, sweetness
-Taste: Vanilla, honey, trace smoke. Drying effect on finish from tannins. Oak is balanced nicely with the sweetness of the mead. It is now starting to get some trace bourbon notes.
-Body: Nice body. I don’t think it will get much better without over oaking it.

Cubes
-Nose: Musty oak, honey, sweet. The musty smell has increased in a bad way.
-Taste: Light vanilla. Honey. No smoke. Some tannins. Cannot taste the mustiness much.
-Body: Improved body. About the same as 1 month.

Xoakers
-Nose: Oaky but smells hollow compared to Barrel, honey, sweet. Some mustyness.
-Taste: Lots of vanilla (more of a 1 dimensional vanilla compared to barrel), honey, trace smoke. Slightly less tannins than a barrel.
-Body: Improved, very close to barrel.

Vanilla Liquid Tannin (No change from 1 month)
-Nose: Honey, sweetness, noticeably absent oak
-Taste: Multidimensional Vanilla, No smoke, very mild oak notes.
-Body: Some improvement, lot less than barrel.

Fruit Liquid Tannin (No change from 1 month)
-Nose: Tartness, honey
-Taste: Adds a tartness, this has integrated quite nicely. No oak noticeable but it’s quite pleasant. Honey. Tannins definitely present. I take back saying it would compliment a berry mead much better than a traditional. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved, but not as much as the barrel.

Combined Liquid Tannin (No change from 1 month)
-Nose: Trace oak, honey.
-Taste: Nice vanilla with a bit of tartness. Now that some more integration time has occurred, this is way better together than apart. It has no resemblance to mimicking an oak barrel however.
-Body: Improved but not as good as barrel.


Takeaway

Bottom Line: Xoakers with Vanilla Liquid Tannin would be my recommended barrel mimic. Perhaps up the dose of Xoakers.

Xoakers provide most of the barrel body and base vanilla content, but the vanilla is one dimensional. The Vanilla Liquid Tannin provides a multidimensional vanilla flavor and some additional body. So far, neither of these have provided any trace bourbon notes like the barrel. It could be the Xoakers need more time to fully extract or perhaps I didn’t use a high enough dose of Xoakers.

Since 3 months is the recommended extraction time for Cubes and Xoakers, I will do another time point at 3 months. I may bottle the barrel mead before that point. I find strong bourbon notes to be a flaw in mead (personal preference).

Other Points
The Fruit Enhancing Tannin Extract mostly adds clean body and some tartness. It will be my go to over acid blend when a mead needs a slight touch of acidity. Not barrel related, but good to know!

 

[Maylar]

Takeaway

Bottom Line: Xoakers with Vanilla Liquid Tannin would be my recommended barrel mimic. Perhaps up the dose of Xoakers.

What would your recommendation be for dosage? 3 spheres and 3 ml liquid per gallon?