Tell me about your HERMS-- I've got a ton of questions!

[Stevorino]

No, 1500W pulls about 12A

For 3500W you would need about 28A or so?

It takes some serious juice, you should only need 2 elements. One for the HLT and one for the BK... the MLT should be heated by recirculating through the HLT in the HERMS. Even in this case you will only be running ONE element at a time. HLT to heat strike water and run the HERMS during the mash, and then the BK alone to boil your beer.

In another thread I saw you say you didn't wnat to put it in your BK because you were worried about it carmelizing-- my same fear.

 

[The Pol]

I have since heard a lot about caramelizing being a myth...

 

[Stevorino]

I have since heard a lot about caramelizing being a myth...

I've just heard it takes a lot of heat to do carmelizing, moreso than you usually see in brewing-- but I'd imagine that a 220v Ultra Electrical coil would be enough...

 

[The Pol]

If you use a LOW density element, it will not caramelize... Low Density meaning, low BTU/Sq in. will not caramelize wort.

You have me now putting together a plan to install a couple more CBs in my box in the garage and installing a 3500W element in my BK. Should boil nice and quick, seeing as though the runnings are 160F and I only boil 7.4 gallons...

 

[Stevorino]

If you use a LOW density element, it will not caramelize... Low Density meaning, low BTU/Sq in. will not caramelize wort.

You have me now putting together a plan to install a couple more CBs in my box in the garage and installing a 3500W element in my BK. Should boil nice and quick, seeing as though the runnings are 160F and I only boil 7.4 gallons...

haha, good luck!

 

[The Pol]

I am getting a double pole 30A breaker, which will allow me to easily run a 4500W low density element in my BK. I should be able to convert my BK to electric for less than $60. It will be nice to not have gas to mess with anymore. I will keep my HLT with the 1500W element as it does the job in there quite well.

 

[slnies]

I am getting a double pole 30A breaker, which will allow me to easily run a 4500W low density element in my BK. I should be able to convert my BK to electric for less than $60. It will be nice to not have gas to mess with anymore. I will keep my HLT with the 1500W element as it does the job in there quite well.

Another +1 for the Pol. But I have a thing for electric for all the same reasons. Not to mention the repeatability. Enough said. S.:rockin:

 

[The Pol]

Thanks... The 120V in the HLT is nice... it heats well, it does its job very well, and it is easy to switch with the A419. The 4500W element in the BK will allow me to boil my 7.4 gallons quickly and efficiently. It will also make my brew stand cleaner. I will have a diamond plate shelf that the BK will sit on, and a single cord running to the BK from the receptacle on the wall just below my breaker box.

 

[Hokus]

If I may butt in here....I am having a little trouble understanding what is needed to hook up the electric element. I am interested in starting out with converting my BK into electric heat, using I guess a 4500 watt 220 element. My question is, I see about the SSR and controllers and all that but I never really got a good description of whats needed and what to do to hook it all up.

I am putting in a 30amp 220 line in my garage in the next few weeks to do this, but dont know what else I need to run this. Can someone explain to me what i need and how to hook it up? Ive seen the elements at home depot but im assuming I cant just stick straight 220 juice to the element and have heat that wont blow something up right? Please help

 

[Gonefishing]

I want to go this route when I really get back into AG. If I can figure out how to vent all the steam I want to set up an electric HERMS in my basement. Going to be a bar down there one day... be really cool to brew and be comfortable at the same time... which isn't easy here in the winter.

 

[The Pol]

My 120V element is plugged into a wall socket... (through a temp controller)... so I dont see th difference between that and plugging in a 4500W element to boil with. It is rated for 240V, so 220V should be perfectly fine and not blow anything up.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Can someone explain to me what i need and how to hook it up? Ive seen the elements at home depot but im assuming I cant just stick straight 220 juice to the element and have heat that wont blow something up right? Please help

Well, actually you can do exactly that ! The only issue you have with that is that the temperature is either on or off -- no temperature control.

That is where the SSR & controller ( Ranco, Love, custom ) comes in.

The SSR handles the 20a current to the element. The controller tells the SSR when to come on and turn off.

If I were wiring this again, I think I would find a GFCI breaker that fit my box and have the electrician install it!

 

[Skipster]

... still A LOT cheaper than putting controllers and switches on three burners.

I am wanting to set up a HERMS, so my question is why would you have to have 3 controllers? Isn't controlling the temp through the HLT part of the point. My plans only call for one temp controller on the HLT since I will be mashing in a cooler. Maybe I am way off base here.

Thanks

 

[The Pol]

I am wanting to set up a HERMS, so my question is why would you have to have 3 controllers? Isn't controlling the temp through the HLT part of the point. My plans only call for one temp controller on the HLT since I will be mashing in a cooler. Maybe I am way off base here.

Thanks

You are right, the OP was talking about controlling 3 burners... dunno.

 

[Stevorino]

Well, I've learned a lot since then-- but yeah, I was originally wrong

When I finally do it, I will indeed only have one temperature controller on the HLT-- although I may have digital temp probes on each keggle.

 

[The Pol]

Exactly, I have a digital therm in my MLT, HLT and my boil kettle just boils.

ANYONE see a problem with just getting a 3500W element to boil 7.5 gallons, with no controller, just full out running? Id love to be able to dial it down to say 1500W or 2000W when it gets rolling, but I dunno how.

 

[Hokus]

Well, actually you can do exactly that ! The only issue you have with that is that the temperature is either on or off -- no temperature control.

That is where the SSR & controller ( Ranco, Love, custom ) comes in.

The SSR handles the 20a current to the element. The controller tells the SSR when to come on and turn off.

If I were wiring this again, I think I would find a GFCI breaker that fit my box and have the electrician install it!

I guess this is my main area of confussion. I understand that I could plug the element directly into 220 and have a hot element to make boiling water. However I do want to be able to control it so it will ramp down and maintain a boil. I have been looking at the auberins.com site and see the pids, ssr's, and thermocouples thet sell. However I dont fully understand what I would need to buy. I have a pretty good understanding of electronics and wiring etc, but just never did anything like this before so its all new to me.

I guess I would be needing this PID? 1/16 DIN PID Temperature Controller (SSR control output) [SYL-2352] - $44.50 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

this thermocouple? K Type Thermocouple (6 ft. cable) English thread [TC-K6] - $6.85 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

What amperage ssr would be used here?
I am probablly looking at a 4500 or 5500 watt element to be used in a keggle to boil perhaps this element K Type Thermocouple (6 ft. cable) English thread [TC-K6] - $6.85 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry

Does anyone have maybe a picture of their exact setup and explination of components? This I think would clear it all up for me as I dont fully get how it all connects yet.

 

[The Pol]

They need to make HUGE 6000W rheostats for these things. I mean, what is a temp controller going to do, the wort will never get above 212F (corrected for pressure)... and you obviously want it to keep boiling.
I wish that I could turn the power up on the element to MAX to get the boil started, and then turn it down to say 2000W to keep a nice rolling boil. How will an SSR and a temp controller do that?

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Pol - Think old oven controller... The boil will be rather simple, just like a stovetop. Full feat to boil, then reduce to a certain percentage to maintain.

 

[stevehaun]

Most PID have a manual mode that allows you to dial in % power. This allows you to control the boil kettle element with a PID and SSR. You don't need a thermocouple for your boil kettle. If you have a 4500 watt element, you can run it at 100% power to bring the wort to a boil then turn it down to a lower level, e.g., 65%, to maintain the boil. In manual mode, the PID works by "turning on" the SSR for a percentage of the cycle time. For example, if you have your cycle time set at 1 second and set your percent power at 50%, the SSR will be "on" for 0.5 second and "off" for 0.5 second. You want a PID with DC output and an SSR with DC input and AC output. For a 4500 or 5500 watt element, I would recommend a 40 amp SSR and a heat sink. You can buy all this off Ebay or from Auber instruments. You can use the same setup to control your HLT but you will need a K type thermocouple and a thermowell.

 

[kal]

I am getting a double pole 30A breaker, which will allow me to easily run a 4500W low density element in my BK. I should be able to convert my BK to electric for less than $60. It will be nice to not have gas to mess with anymore. I will keep my HLT with the 1500W element as it does the job in there quite well.

I'm assuming the 30A breaker you're installing is a GFCI breaker? It should be.

Everything in an electric brewery should be GFCI'ed because of the mixture of water & electricity and it's often cheaper (easier) to do at the panel than at the sources that use the power.

I would also recommend using real PIDs instead of the hard on/off Love-type controllers.

Kal

 

[kal]

Most PID have a manual mode that allows you to dial in % power. This allows you to control the boil kettle element with a PID and SSR. You don't need a thermocouple for your boil kettle. If you have a 4500 watt element, you can run it at 100% power to bring the wort to a boil then turn it down to a lower level, e.g., 65%, to maintain the boil. In manual mode, the PID works by "turning on" the SSR for a percentage of the cycle time. For example, if you have your cycle time set at 1 second and set your percent power at 50%, the SSR will be "on" for 0.5 second and "off" for 0.5 second.

This is exactly how I understand it to work too. My concern is that turning 4500-5500 watts on/off every second is just murder on the house mains not?

I could have sworn I read somewhere here that it's even illegal to do in some places as it adds obvious noise/harmonics on to the line (which your electrical company won't like let alone the other sensitive electronic devices in the house). That's a lot of power to be cycling on and off that fast. Your stove, dryer and AC unit eat uo 30A+ as well but they don't cycle on/off every second.

So I guess the question is: Do all electric Brew Kettles simply use PIDs in manual mode where you punch in the %? Anyone ever try ramping up to 212F with a large element (4500-5500) at 100% and then shut it off and maintain boil with a ~1000W (guessing) element running at 100%?

Kal

 

[BrewBeemer]

Heck I was pulling over 135 amps at 240 volts Tig tack welding some 1" alumimum bar stock to 3/8" thick aluminum diamond plate on a boat trailer at the house without any ill effects or complaints from my neighbors. There were many heavy tacks made on this project before getting some serious welding done without a problem. The pig across the street on the pole for my service drop didn't flinch a bit, its fed by 12KV, the powers there. If I was down at the end of the line a couple blocks away with this heavy load surge my neighbors might notice but in your case your only talking about the 5,000 watt range. Crank on and off all your elements if you have a electric stove top, any neighbors complain? I was pulling 32,400 watts not counting the torch cooling pump an additional 264 watts for over 6.5 times your amount.

 

[stevehaun]

I run two 4500 watt elements in both my HLT and BK. I don't run them simulataneously so I am only running 9000 watts (38 amps @ 240 vac). I never see my lights fade in and out or anything that suggests a problem. I have a 50 amp GFI breaker in my 200 amp load center. I am unaware of any problems but maybe the electric company will be knocking at my door soon...

 

[The Pol]

I run two 4500 watt elements in both my HLT and BK. I don't run them simulataneously so I am only running 9000 watts (38 amps @ 240 vac). I never see my lights fade in and out or anything that suggests a problem. I have a 50 amp GFI breaker in my 200 amp load center. I am unaware of any problems but maybe the electric company will be knocking at my door soon...

Hey, do you have PID and SSRs wired into those elements? I do not understand the appication of PIDs and SSRs or how they are wired in AT ALL.

I am almost to the point of installing (2) 1650W 120V elements, placing them on switches, and running both to start the boil and one to keep the boil rolling. I only boil 7.5 gallons, and it starts at say 150-155F and I could start the heating say 10 minutes prior to finishing my sparge. I just do not understand PIDs and SSRs or how to wire them well enough to even begin that process. I also cannot seem to find a comprehensive wiring diagram or explaination on how to use them for the water heater element application.

 

[kal]

I run two 4500 watt elements in both my HLT and BK. I don't run them simulataneously so I am only running 9000 watts (38 amps @ 240 vac). I never see my lights fade in and out or anything that suggests a problem. I have a 50 amp GFI breaker in my 200 amp load center. I am unaware of any problems but maybe the electric company will be knocking at my door soon...

Nice setup. How big are the batches you're making such that you need 9000W in them? Or did you only go big to reduce the heating time?

I was hoping to get away with about 5500W in both of my tanks which will be used to make mostly 10 gallon (some 15) batches. This'll let me go with a 30A GFI breaker and hopefully not tax my 100A service too much.

Kal

 

[kal]

Hey, do you have PID and SSRs wired into those elements? I do not understand the appication of PIDs and SSRs or how they are wired in AT ALL.

The short answer:

A temp probe in the mash or HLT is connected to the PID so that the PID knows when to turn on/off the element. A PID is smarter than a basic love controller that simply looks at current temp and decides if the element should e on/off as the PID uses calculus to looks at ramp up/down speed and will turn OFF the element before it gets close to the target temp.

A PID cannot switch the high currents needed by the element so a solid state relay has to be used (SSR). The PID switches the SSR, the SSR switches the element.

I just do not understand PIDs and SSRs or how to wire them well enough to even begin that process. I also cannot seem to find a comprehensive wiring diagram or explaination on how to use them for the water heater element application.

I would suggest you get someone to help you out. It's not just wiring diagram you need but some understanding of the safety issues involved to make sure you ground things properly and use GFCI's.

I asked earlier if the 30A breaker you were going to get was a GFCI version. That's important. You really need to be careful with any mixtures of electricity and water.

Kal

 

[Nwcw2001]

I understand that I could plug the element directly into 220 and have a hot element to make boiling water. However I do want to be able to control it so it will ramp down and maintain a boil.

I just did some brain storming and discovered that it still works!! I have come up with a hands on kind of solution to this. You don't have to have all the bells and whistles you can wire this in.

It is a 220V 1000W dimmer switch that you would be able to dial in the boil rate by hand. I know that all the controllers would make it easier, but for $15 it makes electric boil achievable without breaking the bank. You get to get your system dialed in before making it automated.

Hope this helps,

John

By the way you can get this dimmer here

 

[The Pol]

I wish it were that easy. That switch is rated at 1000W... most are using 4500W or 5500W elements. Youd need a 5000-6000W switch, right?

 

[The Pol]

The thing I dont like about the PID and SSR is that it is ON/OFF... I wish there were a way to allow a VARIABLE current to the element to be able to ramp the element from 1500-5500W for example, manually.

Here is a link to a 120V 1500W dimmer, but it is like $77, and that will only control ONE 1500W element. I think I am sticking to propane for now. Between the issues with successfully installing the heating element, installing a 220V outlet in my garage, and then controlling the element in my BK... it is not worth it.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3X756?cm_mmc=Google Base-_-Electrical-_-Switches-_-3X756