Tankless Water Heater & Mash Temp

[Patirck]

JKnapp, I'm still stuck on the water filtration issue. Since I live in the area we have pretty much the same water supply so I would be interested to hear what your results are without filtering the water. I want this to work for me, but can't get over the spector of chloro-phenols.

I'm no plumber but couldn't you put some kind of Y valve on the input side of the heater and have one of the branches have a somewhat cheapo water filter (mine cost $17 at home depot and filters sediment and chlorine/chloramine) so that you can put water through the filter only when you are making beer and not filter it otherwise?

 

[nm999]

This also means instant mash-out & sparge water. Yes - the HLT, for me, is dead.

So will you be filling a gallon jug or some other container to measure your mash-out and sparge water.

 

[Jknapp]

Here are some service codes for Noritz heaters. I'm only going to list the ones that seem to be applicable to hombrewers:

Hold up & down arrows at the same time to access service codes

14 - Total GPM output of unit
15 - GPM of H20 going through Heat Exchanger
18 - % of capacity of the unit
30 - Temp of H20 IN
31 - Temp of H20 OUT

 

[Randar]

Very nice. I will have to give those a try next time I am dumping 180 with my frigid 45 degree ground water.

 

[nm999]

So will you be filling a gallon jug or some other container to measure your mash-out and sparge water.

I guess this is also directed towards Jknapp.

I got an old S.E.T.S. tankless water heater from my neighbor and am trying to figure out how to best use it. It would be awesome to replace my HLT with it but filling a pitcher to measure water kind of reduces the cool factor a bit.

 

[smakudwn]

I guess this is also directed towards Jknapp.

I got an old S.E.T.S. tankless water heater from my neighbor and am trying to figure out how to best use it. It would be awesome to replace my HLT with it but filling a pitcher to measure water kind of reduces the cool factor a bit.

Just run it from a hose into a HLT with a siteglass?

 

[Randar]

Just run it from a hose into a HLT with a siteglass?

I think he and cruelkix were trying to eliminate the HLT altogether. In reality, I think you still need it as a collection/measure and minor adjustment vessel.

 

[Bensiff]

I'm no plumber but couldn't you put some kind of Y valve on the input side of the heater and have one of the branches have a somewhat cheapo water filter (mine cost $17 at home depot and filters sediment and chlorine/chloramine) so that you can put water through the filter only when you are making beer and not filter it otherwise?

I've thought about that. First I'm going to side by side water treated by filter and water treated with campden only to see if there is a flavor difference. My water is so clean that I think the campden approach will end up being the winner due to ease.

 

[Jknapp]

Just run it from a hose into a HLT with a siteglass?

Yep, that's it!

 

[Jknapp]

Very nice. I will have to give those a try next time I am dumping 180 with my frigid 45 degree ground water.

My test was with 47 degree ground water. You'll be just fine with your Noritz.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I think using these tankless hot water heaters for a brewery is a good idea but I think I would want mine dedicated. I cringe to think of what would happen if you accidentally left it set very high. It sounds like a scald waiting to happen unless there is something I am not seeing.

 

[Montanaandy]

My parents have 2 Bosch tankless heaters that are 22 years old and have been running at 140 degree output for that entire time in a house of 5 people for more than half that time. A few minor part replacements is it and this is "older" technology.

Nobody here is suggesting running at 180 all the time, BTW, and yes, they last longer than that without issue, generally, as long as your water doesn't have high mineral content. If it does, it just takes a more regular maintenance cycle to ensure there isn't too much build-up.

Unless you have a recirc pump either internally in the TWH (which is usually a small HP pump) or preferably externally (a 3 HP is good) you will bleed off a good deal of water getting from 45' to 180' as well as energy to heat that water that is going down the drain. The energy savings if any is negligible. Montanaandy.

 

[Randar]

Unless you have a recirc pump either internally in the TWH (which is usually a small HP pump) or preferably externally (a 3 HP is good) you will bleed off a good deal of water getting from 45' to 180' as well as energy to heat that water that is going down the drain. The energy savings if any is negligible. Montanaandy.

Sorry if I have added any confusion. I (or anyone else) was not talking about generating 180 degree water in anything but a completely diverted mode to dump the water directly from the tank. God forbid anyone tries to recirculate 180 degree water, that's insane.

As for the recirc pumps, some models actually use March pumps in the same 1/25th HP range! 3 HP would be WAY overkill for low flow rate recirculation (unless you live at the Vanderbilt Mansion)

The Navien models have the hot water return to the tank from the far end loop and use that for maintaining a "hot water" temp in the hot water supply line (so you'd be wanting to insulate your hot water pipes) but it takes advantage of the 3-stage burner and bypasses the cold water inlet to re-heat the water already in the hot water pipes.

 

[Jknapp]

Just thought I'd give a quick report on brewing yesterday with the tankless..

I brewed a 5.25 gal batch of Pale Ale. It was great! From pre-heating my mash tun to srubbing the kettle - 3hrs 21mins - start to completely finished. Not that I want to rush through my hobby, but with a 14 week old at home, I don't get much time away..

I only used the Noritz unit at 170 for the mash in. After a prelim test, I realized that I probably didn't need the higher 180 range to start. I opened the unit up at 170 and completely filled my mash tun cooler. After 5-10 mins of preheat time, I ran off the water to the level I needed. I was a little low in temp at that point (around 160), so I added my fill hose and opened the valve on both the hot water & cooler, letting some of the cooler water drain while filling with hot water. Kind of like a pre-heat-fly-sparge. When it came up to 165, I shut both off & mashed-in. easy.

I collected my 1st runnings as usual, determined the volume I needed for my boil volume, set the Noritz to 180 and filled a measured HDPE container to transfer to my MLT. Adding the sparge water, the grain/mash bed measured 168 degrees - which was perfect.

Everything else was the same. The added bonus was being able to wash my gear in the driveway in 40 degree weather with 120 degree water.

I really like the added funtionality of a tankless water heater. If you're at a place where you probably have to replace your tank water heater, I'd strongly reccommend making this investment in your home & your brewery.

Now, if I could only get a trench drain installed in my garage.. hmm..

 

[Samuel9609]

Maybe this has already been said but everybody is saying they are using the tankless water heater to get sparge water but why cant you use it directly to recirculate the wort for your different temperature schedules?

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Maybe this has already been said but everybody is saying they are using the tankless water heater to get sparge water but why cant you use it directly to recirculate the wort for your different temperature schedules?

Huh?

I am guessing you are implying taking a 180 degree feed from the TWH to heat wort you are recirculating in the mash tun, right? In essence an old school counterflow chiller but in reverse...hot water in the outer jacket and cooler wort in the inner tubing (same can be said of a plate chiller which is actually a plate heater exchanger).

If that was you implication it seems an aweful waste of hot water unless you are using it for other purposes after it has raised the temperature of the wort. Theoretically you could use it for washing the fermentor, etc but I never have that much stuff to wash until after I have sparged.

I love tankless water heaters...always have even when I just had an in-shower water heater in my appartment in Cologne (student housing for 3 month language course...no other hot water in the flat). Electric tankless water heaters could theoretically be used as well but you better have a massive amount of amperage left in your service panel (many use 40 amp double breakers so 40 amp 220V)...and I am not sure they can be overriden to supply water in excess of 140 degrees.

Edit: Doh! did not notice that this was an ancient thread...sorry to revive a dead topic.

 

[AlphaPyro]

I think the implication was actually running wort from your mash through the tankless water heater and back into the mash tun to control mash temperatures. Much like a RIMS system instead of a HERMS

 

[Bensiff]

I think the implication was actually running wort from your mash through the tankless water heater and back into the mash tun to control mash temperatures. Much like a RIMS system instead of a HERMS

That'd be the worst of both worlds, expensive and difficult to maintain. Easier to stick an element in a tube, a pid in a box, and some wires between.

 

[AlphaPyro]

That'd be the worst of both worlds, expensive and difficult to maintain. Easier to stick an element in a tube, a pid in a box, and some wires between.

Strangely enough what brought me to this post was I was researching a way to speed up ramp temps... from what I understand is the RIMS tube will step up, but at the rate in which it does it may not be ideal... if this is instant than all that is required is pushing the volume through at it's max flow rate

my concern there is compacting the grain bed trying to move the liquid that fast

not to mention the cost of a TWH

 

[Bensiff]

Strangely enough what brought me to this post was I was researching a way to speed up ramp temps... from what I understand is the RIMS tube will step up, but at the rate in which it does it may not be ideal... if this is instant than all that is required is pushing the volume through at it's max flow rate

my concern there is compacting the grain bed trying to move the liquid that fast

not to mention the cost of a TWH

I figure the only way you are going to get truly fast ramp times is by adding boiling water. If a professional brewery isn't doing that, than anything we do at a homebrew level (RIMS, HERMS, and such) is going to be faster than their ramp times so it doesn't bother me much anymore.

I'm sure you could size a tankless to a pump speed for the compaction issue; but, then it would take a long time to raise the temp. Perhaps direct steam injection would get you what you want.

 

[CaptainDucman]

breaking out the defibrillator on this thread....

Ive been looking for a while for an Electric Tankless Hot Water Heater that can be hacked to heat higher than 140. It is going to be a dedicated brewing HWH so no fear of hurting anyone in the house. I found this ETHWH on amazon, but more interesting was a review by one guy who purchased it... he found a jumper labeled "180" and by jumping those pins he got 180 degree water.

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on this one and see how it performs.

 

[brewman !]

FWIW, I designed ZEUS I to use a tankless hot water heater. I bought a really simple one and although i had to regulate it by hand and over ride the control, it would output really hot water. (I forget the temperature.) I never built ZEUS I because we moved houses and I decided to move my brewery from the garage to the basement.

I too am on a march to reduce brewing times by minimizing waits for water heating. Thus I started on ZEUS II, the latest incarnation of which I hope will do away with the HLT by steam heating sparge water on the fly.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f253/birth-zeus-non-typical-brewstand-build-368010/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f253/zeuss-rebirth-non-typical-all-steam-brew-stand-455905/