SVR info -- brewtech 1V

[ewillems]

Hi,

I would like to build a control system comparable with the brewtech 1V/2V/3V system, which regulates the voltage to the heating element rather than switching it on and off, often done with an SSR.
Does anybody has an idea of what SVR that is used in the brewtech system or what SVR can be used. I do not seem to find any SVR module that can be easily controlled with a PID module such as the Omron e5cc.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards,
Eric

 

[doug293cz]

Why do you feel the need to do things differently than almost all of the other brew controllers?

Brew on

 

[RufusBrewer]

ETA

In short PIDs control an SSR. A PID cannot (in practical usage) control a SSVR. A SSVR is controlled by a knob adjustment.

An SSVR is a SSR with a circuit inside it that does the on off on off on off on off switching much like a PID switches an SSR. Instead of some program code and setting and a temp probe to determine the on off switching pattern, an SSVR uses the value of resistance across it's control terminals.

When you put a resistor that can change it's resistance, (aka potentiometer, rheostat, pot) you can change the on off on off on off pattern.

I do not know between an SSVR or SSR if one is better then the other. Depends on your requirements. If all you need is a up down knob, you adjust it to where you like it, an SSVR is an elegant and simple solution.

If you want the smarts and ability to react and adjust against temp probe, A PID and an SSR is an appropriate solution.

 

[doug293cz]

Just for info, all SSR, SSVR, TRIAC, SCR power controllers do on-off switching of the incoming sinusoidal current/voltage waveform in order to modulate the average output current/voltage. None (at least of those inexpensive enough to use for home brewing) adjust the incoming sinusoidal voltage to a lower amplitude sinusoidal voltage. An auto transformer will actually adjust the amplitude of a continuous power input waveform, but they are not amenable to control by a PID (you'd need a mechanical servo motor set up for feedback control to do that.)

So, the question comes down to how short a cycle time (on + off time) do you think you need? Most common PIDs provide a minimum cycle time of 1 to 2 seconds. An Auber EZBoil provides a minimum cycle time in the range of 0.033 seconds to about 0.167 seconds (depending on power setting.) An SSVR has a cycle time of 0.0083 seconds. An SSVR also produces electrical interference since it does not do 0 voltage switching

Brew on

 

[ewillems]

Why do you feel the need to do things differently than almost all of the other brew controllers?

Brew on

I have a brewtech ekettle and want to control the halo element with voltage control to have a steady heat production and not an on/off control (even if the period is small).
This because I also want to use is for step mashing in a biab and want to avoid melting the bag...
Since this is also how the 1V brewtech system works, I wanted to copy that functionality...
Looked all over the web to find a SVR that can be controlled with the output of a PID, but only found SVRs that are controlled via a potentiometer. So I was wondering what the brewtech system is using. I might have to buy one and rip it

 

[RufusBrewer]

Dude, you are getting way too distracted with symantics and making things more difficult than it needs to be.

The smart way to get where you want is:
Step #1 choose the method of how you want to control the solid state switch a) PID or b) resistance/rheostat/potentiometer
Step #2 Purchase the device that works best with the answer from Step #1.
PID = SSR
resistance = SSVR

Neither a SSR or SVR raises or lowers the voltage. Both are either On or Off. If you are talking 240 VAC, it is either 240 VAC or Zero Volts AC. (it is never some place between. like 100 VAC)

Both control the temp by the percentage of time between On Vs Off. Simplified example: 1 second On, 1 second Off, (50% power) or 1 second On, 3 seconds Off, (25% power) or 3 seconds On and 1 second Off, (75% power) etc.

A SSR and and a SSVR are the same in that they are both a simple On/Off switches. The same as the On/Off switch on your wall that turns your lights on. The difference is the switch on your wall that mechanically opens and closes the switch contacts.

A SSR and a SSVR the same in that they both use solid state "contacts" that "open: and "close" the circuit. The difference is what triggers or control the contacts to open a close.

For a SSR it is an outside voltage that commands the internal switch to open and close.

For a SSVR, it is a resistance value that controls the On/Off to trigger.

 

[Bobby_M]

In the earlier Wort Hog controllers (maybe currently as well but I don't have one of those to comment on), The PID used a low current internal relay to open and close the control loop of an SSVR (a real SSVR module as witnessed by my own eyes). The potentiometer still controlled the effective power output but the PID decided when to call for heat or not. I'm sure it works fine but whether it's needed in reality is suspect.

Here's a rub though. I have an SSbrewtech 2V controller open on my desk right now and the two relays inside the box are just standard SSRs with 3-32VDC trigger input. It sounds like potential creative marketing in my opinion. If it supposedly functions "LIKE" an SSVR, I'd love to know how they would do that without an actual SSVR. Maybe their PID has remarkably short cycle duration that acts more like an SSVR in that the pulsing is faster/smoother. I looked up the Omron E5CC and it does in fact have an optional 100 milisecond control period. So...



Regarding the post above, I think of SSVR differently than switching on and off. It's more of sine wave sculpture.

I would say it's semantics though. A sine wave itself is already turning on and off 30 times a second. The SSVR just shortens how long it's on for 30hz cycles.




The control of a standard SSR with an Auber DSPR-120 or DSPR-3xx controller is about as fine as you'd ever need. The SSbrewtech animation that is supposed to scare you off a typical PID/SSR is only SOMETIMES accurate. There are PIDs of all different flavors out there and some of them have a minimum cycle time of 2 seconds. That would mean on for 1 second and off for 1 second when you have it set to 50% output. On the other hand, the DSPR series of controllers from Auber do in fact slice up the AC sine wave just like you're describing you want.

All of that is great, but these controllers have more functions built in than any other "PID-like" controller short of the programmable microcomputer based controllers. Long story short, build a controller with the EZBoil and if you don't like it, I'll buy all the parts from you.


As for fears of scorching, it's possible with all controller technology. If you have a controller in temperature mode (auto or mash mode), and the set point is far away from the actual current temp, they will all fire the element more aggressively to get there as fast as possible. If the temp delta is pretty close, it will fire in very short bursts to get there without overshooting. The DSPR-320 has this parameter you can adjust:

Set it for 25% if you can deal with the slower speed of step ramps.

Or just put a false bottom into the kettle to keep the bag off the element like a sane person and let the controller do its job.

 

[ewillems]

Thanks for the reply, indeed the sine wave is sculptured. If brewtech is using SSR and not SVR then that is really marketing from them to say they control the voltage and have steady heating...not on/off

I also saw that auber has a SVR that can be controlled via a 0V-5V instead of rheostat and the output graph is also published ....it really controls the voltage (rather steep curve between 2v and 4V input) and hence the current going to the heating element ( law of ohm) and as such also the power P=U*I .
Due to the statements of brewtech I would assume that was what they were doing, but if you have an open controller and there is only SSR's in it then they are just like any other controller only controlling the time between on and off , probably switching on at 0V and cutting after some cycles, in the case that the omron is set at very low interval it might emulate the effect of an SVR. The halo element might also have some intrinsic slowness to heat up/cool down so that might look like it is not running at full power.
Any way you can send me a picture of the brewtech ?

 

[doug293cz]

Here's the 240V response curve for the Auber analog voltage controlled SVR.

Note that the vertical axis units are "VAC, RMS" RMS (Root Mean Square) is just a fancy way to average a random voltage waveform such that the number that results acts the same way in Ohm's law as a DC voltage. It in no way means the actual output is a constant voltage at any point. The actual output waveform looks like what @Bobby_M showed above - an on/off chopped AC signal.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks for the reply, indeed the sine wave is sculptured. If brewtech is using SSR and not SVR then that is really marketing from them to say they control the voltage and have steady heating...not on/off

I also saw that auber has a SVR that can be controlled via a 0V-5V instead of rheostat and the output graph is also published ....it really controls the voltage (rather steep curve between 2v and 4V input) and hence the current going to the heating element ( law of ohm) and as such also the power P=U*I .
Due to the statements of brewtech I would assume that was what they were doing, but if you have an open controller and there is only SSR's in it then they are just like any other controller only controlling the time between on and off , probably switching on at 0V and cutting after some cycles, in the case that the omron is set at very low interval it might emulate the effect of an SVR. The halo element might also have some intrinsic slowness to heat up/cool down so that might look like it is not running at full power.
Any way you can send me a picture of the brewtech ?

Asking for a picture of the SSbrewtech sounds a little like you don't believe me. I really really promise I do have it in front of me. The SSR models inside are C-LIN HHG1 series SSR as seen here: https://m.clin-ele.com/good-quality...g1-1-032f-22-hhg1-1-032f-38-ssr-da-c-lin.html

I've tried to explain the best I can that the function you're looking for is handled by the Auber DSPR series of controllers and they are vastly better than any PID out there. Actual SSVR is what I would consider a very smash and grab way of controlling average output power. As mentioned, the response curve is not linear by a long shot. I even offered to buy the parts off you if you weren't happy with the DSPR + SSR combo and I don't even work for Auber and really have nothing to gain by making such an offer. That's really how good that controller is.

 

[ewillems]

Asking for a picture of the SSbrewtech sounds a little like you don't believe me. I really really promise I do have it in front of me. The SSR models inside are C-LIN HHG1 series SSR as seen here: https://m.clin-ele.com/good-quality...g1-1-032f-22-hhg1-1-032f-38-ssr-da-c-lin.html

I've tried to explain the best I can that the function you're looking for is handled by the Auber DSPR series of controllers and they are vastly better than any PID out there. Actual SSVR is what I would consider a very smash and grab way of controlling average output power. As mentioned, the response curve is not linear by a long shot. I even offered to buy the parts off you if you weren't happy with the DSPR + SSR combo and I don't even work for Auber and really have nothing to gain by making such an offer. That's really how good that controller is.

Not at all questioning if you have it, I would not doubt at all, just wanted a picture to see the components. Did not want to bother you with asking for the models so I thought photo would be easier.
New in brewing and new on the forum. But hey, very much appreciate all comment here.
Looking at your signature I assume you are the shop owner of brewhardware.com ?
Unfortunately I live in Belgium/Europe and have no idea where I can order the parts you mention.