Stout Brew Kettles

[steveh01420]

Yes, it is a valid option and they say so in their warranty section, to bad. They imply they will take it back but certainly leave their options open to take the easiest path for them. For the prices paid for these kettles they should be all over this. I realize there will be mistakes in manufacturing but it is how a company deals with the mistake when it goes to a customer that sets apart integrity and pride from the "fastbuck" kind of people. Stout should do the legwork to find a welder in the area, there are plenty in CT and MA. Stout should also pay all of the expense for shipping and instruct the welding company on how it should be welded. But really most their customers do not usually do this kind of thing, so they should take care of it. So Orangehero I don't know what part of CT you are in but there is a high end welding firm in Worcester MA called Micro Arc that could do this fix for you or send you in that right direction, good luck. Also let's start posting on Stout's Facebook page and see if they will do better for this guy...

 

[bethebrew]

I think OP may not be enough of a squeaky wheel to get the grease.

No question had this happened to me, I would have had a new tank. Granted it's an hour drive away and shipping isn't the issue, because I would have been at their door returning the defective tank, and getting a brand spanking new one for my drive back home. Let them repair it on their own time. Had I bought it on a credit card, this would be a non-issue completely as I would just call the bank and explain the situation to them and then just not pay a stinking dime of that bill.

 

[kevink]

Orangehero,

They definitely should test everything before shipping it out. Any good welder does! If you're ever near Philly, stop by and I'll fix those leaks for you!

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I for the most part really love my stout vessels (boil, HLT, MLT, all 20g), except for the HERMS coil in the HLT. With the heating element option taking up some space, and their weird tiny diameter coil, it ends up as about 30' of 8 mm stainless coil (<3/8). The flow rate and heat transfer from the HLT to the coil is awful, to the point that I'm looking into getting a new coil and mounting through the lid as I did with an old brewery. 50' of 1/2" coil replacing their coil.

The HERMS wasn't a cheap upgrade, and due to the problems it is not sufficient to control temperatures in the MLT. The idea is, the liquid coming out of the coil should be REALLY close to the liquid in the HLT, and this isn't the case.

Other than that, I like the vessels a lot. I would suggest they don't sell the HERMS upgrade until they've increased its usefulness.

 

[jawsbc]

Hi Everyone,

This is John from Stout Tanks.

We do warrant the products we sell. I believe I know which item this is and we did ask our customer to see if he had a local welder do the repairs - we prefer to have repairs done locally for two main reasons:

1) it's the fastest way to solve the problem
2) it avoids the risk of causing additional damage in shipping

If there are no other options, then we will take a kettle back to solve the problem.

We have not said to our customer that we would not deal with the problem - we are in the middle of dealing with the problem now. It was just late Friday afternoon when he emailed us about the welder (it is now Monday), so we're still within a reasonable response period, I think.

If we can help him find a local welder to fix it, that will solve the problem quickly and safely. We will, of course, either reimburse our customer or pay the welder directly. We do not shirk our responsibilities, and we want to have happy brewers as customers! That's why we do what we do and keeps us motivated every day.

And, if there are no local/nearby welders to do the repairs, we will take it back and either fix it here or replace it.

Cheers,

John/Stout Tanks and Kettles

 

[jawsbc]

This is John from Stout Tanks again.

Regarding the HERMS coil - we've sold many of these hot liquor tanks with the same configuration as BadWolfBrewing has without this issue.

We received an email from him about this just today and have responded to help figure out what is going on with his coil.

Cheers,

John

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

Yep, stout replied to my email, I'm hopeful that we'll find a solution.

I'd like to reiterate, aside from some temp control issues, the vessels are great. The bottom drain in the MLT alone is a godsend. The quality of the welds, where visible, is impressive. For the welded fittings, it is actually hard to see the seams on a few of them. I haven't had any of the leaks that were reported. One of the valves leaked a tiny amount, but I just tightened the crap out of it after cleaning and it is fine now.

Perhaps the community can weigh in. I'm pumping through the coil full throttle with a center inlet pump (march motor, chugger head), and getting 1 - 1.3 gpm or so of recirculation. I look at other electric HERMS systems, and they get matching (or near) temps in HLT and MLT with the same pump, and similar vessels. The only difference is they use larger HERMS coils. If they get higher recirc rates, it is due to less restriction from the coil.

So, is the solution a bigger pump or a bigger HERMS coil? A bigger herms coil (hung from the lid) could double as an IC chiller, while a bigger pump could create a very awesome whirlpool. Would a higher flow rate cause grain bed compaction?

 

[oakbarn]

I contacted John and can quite understand why a "local" solution would better aid his customer. Since most items are "special order" and a long lead time, if it can be fixed locally then it would be quicker. In all my dealings with John, he has been very responsive.

As far as the small HERMS coil, I also would have preferred a little bigger tube. The flow is constricted so there is not a lot of volume throughput. It is easy to control the temp of the mash however. It would not matter if the coil was tube was bigger or not, you would still have some point of equilibrium to match. We had previous used a Chin Chiller Counterflow chiller as my coil. It worked well and the flow was higher. But is this a problem? My Wort comes out crystal clear amber using the Stout HERMS and my efficiency is very good. I just like to see flow! We measure the temp on the outlet of the MLT and on the recirculate inlet. We do see stratification in the MLT top to bottom. Ours does not have the bottom outlet but I may have an exchange in the future!

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I ran the numbers, using the pump curves and some heat transfer / fluid dynamics equations.

Switching from a small coil to a large coil should result in 100 +-50 % increase in heat transfer to the coil, using conservative vales. The error range is so large because the head loss through a coiled tube is a tough thing to predict. I've also neglected the skin effect, which would favor the larger diameter tube even more. Potentially, the difference could be even larger from this. Using the pump curve and assuming a straight tube, I estimated that the flow rate through a larger coil would increase 1.5 to 2x, even with the longer length. If you bring Dean's equations into it to include the effects of the coil diameter (the stout is ~5"), it would be an even bigger difference, though I didn't trust the numbers I was getting.

To achieve the same increase in heat exchange to the herms coil by only modifying the flow rate, I would have to increase the flow rate by at east 4.2x, potentially much more. I'm not sure how fast you need to recirc before grain bed compaction becomes an issue, but I'd bet that would do it. Trying to recirc that fast through their coil would also require a reasonably beefy pump...

For the most part, the huge difference is just in the surface area of the coil. The convective heat transfer coefficient does go up with the smaller diameter coil, but not as fast as the surface area decreases.

EDIT: I made a small sign error, the flow is not laminar. One isn't much more turbulent than the other though, maybe a 5-6% difference. Oddly enough, the turbulent flow favored the larger pipe more. I guess by being turbulent, all of the flow gets in on the action and the whole cross-section of the pipe gets utilized for heat exchange.

 

[DragonHartBrewing]

Hey BadWolfBrewing just wondering if you have tried to slow the flow down through the coil so the wort has more surface time in the coil? I had a similar problem with a herns system I built in another brew stand of mine! when I slowed down the flow that helped to control the temperature. Good luck

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

slowing down the flow through the coil acts sort of non-intuitively.

While it would help the temperature inside the coil match the HLT, in the end you are adding less energy to the MLT. Essentially, the rate of heat transfer is proportional to the difference in temp between inside and outside. If the temp in the coil is equal to the temp outside the coil, you are not getting any more heat into the MLT from that section of the coil. By increasing the flow rate to the max that the false bottom can handle it, you are delivering as much energy to the MLT as the coil can provide. I'm still not certain what the max recirc rate is. I go 1 gpm, which is the max my pump can push through the coil.

I did find a solution, though. I spoke to a thermal expert at the research group I work with, and he questioned my derivation assumptions. I assumed that since I was recirculating the HLT at such a high rate (10 GPM, the center inlet pumps can really fly), that the outside surface of the coil would be a uniform temperature, which would be the same as the output of the HLT.

So, being a good little engineer, I went home with a spool of thermocouple wire, and probed the crap out of it. Turns out, the volume of water located inside the coil was significantly cooler (10 degs) than the volume outside the coil. So, the inside wall of the coil wasn't being productive, and was possibly hurting the heat transfer.

It is due to how I was recirculating. I used a 90 deg return barb hooked to the recirculation return port on the HLT, just like shown in Kal's website. However, the coil in the stout-tanks is a much smaller diameter, and the volume of water inside the coil wasn't being recirculated much, and was only affected by natural convection from the heating element below.

Finally, the fix: I had some extra tri-clamp stuff sitting around, so I made a tee on the inside of the recirculation port that split the return flow to outside the coil at an angle, like it was, and to shoot down the center of the coil as well.

The problem went away. The effluence of the coil (the output) was at the same temp as the HLT at my maximum recirculation rate. The MLT still lagged the HLT by 1.5 degs, but that isn't too bad, and I might add insulation to be able to step faster anyways.

 

[orangehero]

I recently received a bottom drain mash tun from Stout as well. Although thankfully it doesn't leak, I'm still not completely satisfied. It came with a minor warp/dent in the side and the bottom skirt is slightly out of round. Maybe my expectations are too high, but it's not perfect. The kettle was better in the overall construction, but it did have bad welds on the fittings.

From all of my research, my impression was that Stout tanks are a great value and a top quality product, with the only downside being the wait for custom options. Unfortunately it seems there are issues with quality control and fit and finish. The tanks are inexpensive Chinese products. It seemed there was no comparison in the market for homebrew equipment, but if I had known about these issues I may have gone a different direction.

On a final note, the people at Stout have been great. For my mash tun at my request they leak tested it and packaged it well to ensure no damage occured in transit again.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

Sorry to hear that, my kettles (all 3) came without any defects that I can find. I think if I was designing them from scratch I'd make some different choices, but the worksman ship on mine is fine at least.

 

[oakbarn]

Stout has always backed their products with me and replaced a bent top (damaged in shipping). I think the welded fitting are 1000% better than any weldless fitting (All of my Blickmanns leak). I have 2 conicals (14.5 and 27 gallon and we have made many batches and never had a problem. All of the :rockin:Stout equipment is easy to clean.

 

[zach51chev]

After a month of scouring the web for information on Stout I picked up a 15 gal. brew kettle today straight from the warehouse since I only live an hour away. John was a great host and encouraged me to open the boxed item prior to purchase to inspect for my satisfaction, no weld issues at all. Couldn't be happier with my purchase and I'm looking forward to many years of service from this brew kettle, I know it'll last a long time. While performing the initial cleaning I looked a little deeper into the quality of build and engineering and I cannot find any flaws. I'm a jet mechanic by trade so I know what I want to see here and I'm not disappointed. Hopefully John keeps up on customer service as the company grows and the quality runs in-line with where they're at now. Blichmann needs to step up their game if they want to compete. Recommending to all my homebrew buddies.

 

[Dcoux09]

After a month of scouring the web for information on Stout I picked up a 15 gal. brew kettle today straight from the warehouse since I only live an hour away. John was a great host and encouraged me to open the boxed item prior to purchase to inspect for my satisfaction, no weld issues at all. Couldn't be happier with my purchase and I'm looking forward to many years of service from this brew kettle, I know it'll last a long time. While performing the initial cleaning I looked a little deeper into the quality of build and engineering and I cannot find any flaws. I'm a jet mechanic by trade so I know what I want to see here and I'm not disappointed. Hopefully John keeps up on customer service as the company grows and the quality runs in-line with where they're at now. Blichmann needs to step up their game if they want to compete. Recommending to all my homebrew buddies.

If you have the thermometer 15 gallon kettle, can you please answer this question for me: If you have 5 gallons of wort in the 15 gallon kettle, is the thermometer submerged? Also, did it come with a dial thermometer or is it just the well for it?

Thanks!

 

[jawsbc]

Hi Dcoux09

This is John from Stout Tanks. We put the thermowell at approx. the 4 gal. level on the 15 gal. brew kettle. On the direct fire kettles, we do include a dial thermometer to go with the thermowell.

Cheers,

John/Stout Tanks and Kettles, LLC

 

[Dcoux09]

Hi Dcoux09

This is John from Stout Tanks. We put the thermowell at approx. the 4 gal. level on the 15 gal. brew kettle. On the direct fire kettles, we do include a dial thermometer to go with the thermowell.

Cheers,

John/Stout Tanks and Kettles, LLC

Thanks John,

I sent you an email asking about this question; I appreciate you getting back to me so quickly. I'm in the market for a new brew kettle and am in between yours and a 10 gallon Blichmann. I noticed on this thread that one gentleman from CT (which I also happen to be from ironically) had trouble with a weld. If I were to buy one from you guys, what's the warranty policy if something were damaged in shipping and could you test the kettle for leaks before it's sent? I've also read about your terrific customer service and see it first hand here. Thanks again!

- Dan

 

[orangehero]

My kettle is still as it came, but they did supposedly leak test my mash tun before they sent it to me after I requested it. If the damage is repairable you'll have to find someone to repair it.

 

[jawsbc]

Hi Dan,

It's rare that we have leaks - our warranty is 1 year and we try to get repairs taken care of locally.

Remind us about the leak test and we will do it.

Cheers,

John

 

[Dcoux09]

My kettle is still as it came, but they did supposedly leak test my mash tun before they sent it to me after I requested it. If the damage is repairable you'll have to find someone to repair it.

Wow... I think this cements my decision. Just out of curiosity, why would you buy a mash tun from them if they wouldn't replace your leaky kettle?

 

[orangehero]

Custom orders can take several months to arrive. My mash tun, although not cosmetically perfect, doesn't leak. Stout is generally responsive and I think they try to take care of customers, but they aren't the ones making the tanks. Maybe you'll be lucky, it seems I'm the only one who's ever had issues.

 

[DragonHartBrewing]

I have there mash tun & 3 fermenters. I haven't had any problems.


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[jawsbc]

Hi Dcou9,

We found a nearby repair person for Orangehero some time ago, and recently he brought the tank there and the guy thought he would not be up to the job for the repair (when we described the issue on the phone, they said they could do it, but changed after they saw it). So we are unfortunately back at square one. We always try to be responsive!

Cheers,

John/Stout Tanks and Kettles

 

[txjoe]

Custom orders can take several months to arrive. My mash tun, although not cosmetically perfect, doesn't leak. Stout is generally responsive and I think they try to take care of customers, but they aren't the ones making the tanks. Maybe you'll be lucky, it seems I'm the only one who's ever had issues.

You're not the only one. My brew kettle leaked due to a cracked weld around the main drain. The crack occurred after the first test boil of 15 gallons of water. I was able to get it fixed locally, but only after I took Stout to task for not offering to help find a welder.

They expected me to find one. My complaint was that they expected me to be able to judge the abilities of a welder even though I have no qualification to do so. How do I know what questions to ask? After complaining about that fact they finally picked up the phone and found a local welder.

Now if they would tell me why the ports for the sight glass are rusting at the welds inside the pot and find a fix I would be happy. They are rusting no matter how much passivation I try. But I doubt I'll ever hear from them again. It's already been several months and the last I recall hearing is that they are looking into why it's happening.

I've pretty much given up on them. Too bad I liked the design of the other pots and thought about using them when I go all grain.

YMMV.


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[jawsbc]

TX Joe,

Please contact us about your ports.

Thanks,

John/Stout Tanks

 

[TNugent]

I am a huge Stout tanks fan and I love my fermenter. I'm even looking at getting another one.

With that said, I understand the people's frustrations when there is a weld issue. I know first hand how difficult it is to find a competent welder and the troubles in evaluating a persons skills. I also understand the cost implications with shipping and why a company would rather take care of things locally if at all possible. But I also don't think it's fair to put that burden on the customer when they expected to buy a ready to use product.

I'm sure we hear more from those that are unhappy, people tend to be more vocal when they have problems and I don't blame them for that. But if I had one suggestion John, I think that's the one area that needs some work and I don't have the answer for you but somehow if you could improve that area of your business I think it would go a long ways.

 

[jawsbc]

Hi TNugent,

Thanks for your feedback. Nobody likes to hear unpleasant feedback, but I'd rather hear it than not and have someone build pent up frustration. We can deal with issues we know about, but we can't deal with issues we don't know about.

We can/do help people find a welder if they need assistance. Some people do have friends/acquaintances or know qualified SS welders or know how to find one that is convenient for them, so we do ask about that first.

We prefer not to reship the kettles not just due to cost issues, but also because of the risk of damage in shipping. We've reduced shipping damage by changing shipping companies, but it can still happen, which only makes a bad situation even worse.

If someone had no idea about a welder, I can understand how that would feel like an additional burden put on them and we will try to be more sensitive about that going forward.

Thanks again!

Cheers,

John/Stout Tanks and Kettles

 

[miahpage]

A leaking kettle and the warranty/repair policy was my biggest concern when I made my order from Stout Tanks. I looked for a local welder for quite a few months to customize a kettle but I could not find one that had any idea about back purging. Not finding a local welder was a big reason to order from Stout Tanks.

I only ended up ordering the kettle after John agreed to leak test the kettle before shipping. I was really nervous that after a 6 month wait time, I ordered in early November with an April/May delivery date, a kettle that leaked might show up at my door. Then I would be right back where I started, looking for a welder. Given that I have extra custom ports on the kettle I offered to pay for the extra caps for the leak test.

Without John agreeing to leak test the kettle before shipping I would not have made the order. Personally it seems odd that tanks and kettles are not checked for leaks as standard procedure so any issues could be addressed before shipping but I appreciated that John will check if you ask.

 

[swackattack]

John

I am seriously considering stout for my new system but these issues are concerning. Every other business I've dealt with would cover the shipping back and repair it, heck I had a similar issue with another vendor for a comparable product and they shipped me out a brand new one before I even shipped the old one. Just my .02.


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