Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[kh54s10]

Late to the party, but did you say you are in primary for 4 to 5 weeks? If so, you may be tasting autolyzed (not sure on the spelling?) yeast. Dead yeast gives a funky taste. Have you tried racking to secondary or checking gravity to determine when you are done with fermentation instead of waiting that long?

4-5 weeks is not nearly long enough to produce autolysis. Even if that is an issue with homebrewing. There is a very large percentage of homebrewers that routinely ferment for 4 weeks or so every time.

When I started I did all my beers for 3 weeks, then life got in the way and many of them went to 4 weeks or so. Not one "bad" one in all of them. (some were not great, but that was my recipe not the time.)

 

[dallasdb]

This has got to be one EPIC TROLL!!!

I've browsed the thread on and off.

Have we seen any pictures from the OP to prove this isn't a ruse?

No offense, it is just really hard for me to believe you've done all this and still can't brew a decent beer.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

sorry I haven't read the entire thread, but have you tried bottle conditioning some of a batch, and kegging the rest. i've heard some horror stories that can be traced back to a nasty CO2 tank with machine oil in it or something like that.

 

[steveoatley]

The OP is in Lansing Mi.

Is there any HBTer's near by - can run over an take a taste?
Help a brother out ??

I'm in Berkley,Mi. about 1.5 hrs away - 1 way...

There's gotta be someone from HBT that could run over some Saturday

Help a Brotha` Out ??

Any one in Lansing Mi ?

Steve

 

[bbohanon]

35+ batches and still bad beer with extract kits and trying all the advice you have been given on this thread?

If so, its over for you. Quit brewing and sell your gear. Seriously. Find a new hobby that you can succeed with and send your buddy extra money to buy more kits to brew so he can supply you with his beer.

"A mans GOT to know his limitations" - Dirty Harry

 

[mprowland]

This has got to be one EPIC TROLL!!!

I've browsed the thread on and off.

Have we seen any pictures from the OP to prove this isn't a ruse?

No offense, it is just really hard for me to believe you've done all this and still can't brew a decent beer.

No offense taken, but I promise you this is not an EPIC TROLL. What pictures do you want to see? Any Brown, Porter or Stout I've made has been bad to horrible. If I spent money on any of my beers at a bar, I'd be upset. Lighter beers have been okay to decent. I've sent bottles a couple to people here on the site. Granted, they said it wasn't horrible, but they could definitely taste what I've been tasting.

 

[mprowland]

35+ batches and still bad beer with extract kits and trying all the advice you have been given on this thread?

If so, its over for you. Quit brewing and sell your gear. Seriously. Find a new hobby that you can succeed with and send your buddy extra money to buy more kits to brew so he can supply you with his beer.

"A mans GOT to know his limitations" - Dirty Harry

I have never used an extract kit, that's why I'm looking at using one now. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'd be surprised if you've had any success in life with an attitude like that. Maybe you haven't?

 

[dallasdb]

No offense taken, but I promise you this is not an EPIC TROLL. What pictures do you want to see? Any Brown, Porter or Stout I've made has been bad to horrible. If I spent money on any of my beers at a bar, I'd be upset. Lighter beers have been okay to decent. I've sent bottles a couple to people here on the site. Granted, they said it wasn't horrible, but they could definitely taste what I've been tasting.

But seriously, this would be one hell of a ruse.

I'm sure most wouldn't even be mad, they'd be impressed!

 

[Red_Dog]

I haven't read all the posts, so I hope i'm not repeating this. Are you using a gram scale and is it on the gram setting? Could your water salt containers be miss labeled, these would make big differences.

 

[PlexVector]

I would say there is a bit of tangyness that covers up the other desired flavors. Both my batch and his batch were kegged. In the past I have kegged and bottled the same batch with the outcomes being the same. I have not taken my equipment over to my friends. He lives 70 miles away and I drive a Volt so logistically this is a pain in the ass!

I got what I could call a hard to explain tangyness when I got in a hurry on a batch and turned the heat on the kettle too soon with not enough wort. I was also FWH'g and must have scorched the hop pellets and the wort. It was somewhat drinkable, but life is too short to drink bad beer. It was almost like carbonic byte with a harsh twang. It took me a month of reviewing my process over and over until that little mistake bubbled up.

 

[thekraken]

I've spent the last hour and 32 minutes waiting in the doctors office binge reading this thread. I gotta say it's been an epic thriller full of twists and turns, highs and lows. Post #215 had me on the edge of my seat with excitement, then post #222 made my eyes water like a school girl. The enigma that plagues OP's brewery is both titillating and infuriating.

All in all I give this first installment of "Still making bad beer after 30+ batches" 4.5 out of 5 stars. What will happen next? Will it be a happy ending with delicious flowing beer fountains? Or will it be a grim G.R.R. Martineque ending full of bittersweet carnage with a side of disappointment? I for one can't wait to find out!

 

[mprowland]

I haven't read all the posts, so I hope i'm not repeating this. Are you using a gram scale and is it on the gram setting? Could your water salt containers be miss labeled, these would make big differences.

I'm 99% sure I'm using the gram scale. I'll double check when I get home. I'll check anything at this point. Unless the salt containers were mislabeled when I purchased them, I can only assume they're correct.

 

[soccerdad]

tough crowd

 

[McKnuckle]

I can't locate a post where you state the actual amounts of which salts you've added to a particular grain bill and volume of water. Can you give an example from one of your dark beers? Maybe you are adding way too much of something due to misinterpreting Bru'n Water.

There was also a recent update to Bru'n's pH algorithm in terms of roasted malts; apparently it was estimating too high for many people. My gut feeling is that the water build is your culprit. Dry, sulfur, tang, back-end - all mineral issues. I'll bet you're overloading the water and have a lower than optimal pH.

I saw that another person asked a similar question about the exact salt additions halfway through the thread but it wasn't answered. Do tell...?

 

[thekraken]

You said you and a friend both tried the same brown ale recipe and had vastly different results. I propose another experiment. You and your friend both brew the same recipe again, this time each of you brew a double size batch. You each take half of each others wort home with you to ferment. Now between the both of you you'd have 4 batches of what is supposed to be the same beer, compare them after completion and see if you can't narrow down the problem to preferment vs postferment vs environment vs whatever???

Maybe not risk having to dump 10 gallons of one batch... you could each do a six gallon batch and split them into 3 gallon test batches.

 

[mprowland]

I've spent the last hour and 32 minutes waiting in the doctors office binge reading this thread. I gotta say it's been an epic thriller full of twists and turns, highs and lows. Post #215 had me on the edge of my seat with excitement, then post #222 made my eyes water like a school girl. The enigma that plagues OP's brewery is both titillating and infuriating.

All in all I give this first installment of "Still making bad beer after 30+ batches" 4.5 out of 5 stars. What will happen next? Will it be a happy ending with delicious flowing beer fountains? Or will it be a grim G.R.R. Martineque ending full of bittersweet carnage with a side of disappointment? I for one can't wait to find out!

This is too damn funny!! I was hoping the saga would end on the first few pages! Thanks for your dedication on reading the thread.
At this point, I'm only giving updates at the request of people trying to help me out. I don't take the time people give to help me lightly. If people feel that I'm wasting their time with my issues, I'll stop posting. I hate nothing more than when people ask for help and never respond back with what actually fixed their problem. Some other poor sap(like me) can now read this thread and potentially fix their own issues with the great advice(mostly given to me.

 

[mprowland]

I can't locate a post where you state the actual amounts of which salts you've added to a particular grain bill and volume of water. Can you give an example from one of your dark beers? Maybe you are adding way too much of something due to misinterpreting Bru'n Water.

Fair enough, I'll respond to this later when I get home. I have this recipe saved in Bru'N water.

 

[TravelingLight]

If people feel that I'm wasting their time with my issues, I'll stop posting.

Nonsense! Keep it coming. I haven't been involved with this thread actively but I've been lurking. It's baffling me and I personally don't want you to stop posting until it's figured out.

 

[trav77]

Fair enough, I'll respond to this later when I get home. I have this recipe saved in Bru'N water.

I'm a big user of Bru'n Water myself but maybe just to rule out the possibility that you're making an error with it, have you tried simplifying? E.g. just use AJ's water chemistry primer with store-purchased distilled water?

If your water contains chloramines add 1 campden tablet per 20 gallons (before any dilution)

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

That will at least get you in the ballpark and should rule out major water issues.

Sorry if you have already tried this... once upon a time I was following the thread but haven't kept up with it.

 

[bbohanon]

I have never used an extract kit, that's why I'm looking at using one now. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'd be surprised if you've had any success in life with an attitude like that. Maybe you haven't?

Yea thats me..captain of the U.S.S. Failboat...Seriously, I am just trying to save you some time and headache as others on here, I have read through all of this and I honestly I have no idea how you can still be getting bad beer to the point of dumpers and the thought of dumping 35+ batches would make me get close to saying f-it with the hobby..especially if i had a buddy making great beer I could get a supply line from.

At this point, unless you have someone you know who is currently brewing good beer to be there in-person to brew shotgun with you and help identify anything of concern to the issue you are having..I am not sure you are going to overcome this.

Just keeping it real..

 

[Red_Dog]

You could try bottled spring water not distilled (cut back to 1 or 2 gal. batch) with no salts added, this won't be great beer but should make good beer. Have your friend doctor water or mash at his house then finish process at home, this well narrow down the problem area. Only do small changes to your process to narrow down the problem area. BTW some stores repackage salts to smaller quantities I always worry about this.

 

[mprowland]

Yea thats me..captain of the U.S.S. Failboat...Seriously, I am just trying to save you some time and headache as others on here, I have read through all of this and I honestly I have no idea how you can still be getting bad beer to the point of dumpers and the thought of dumping 35+ batches would make me get close to saying f-it with the hobby..especially if i had a buddy making great beer I could get a supply line from.

At this point, unless you have someone you know who is currently brewing good beer to be there in-person to brew shotgun with you and help identify anything of concern to the issue you are having..I am not sure you are going to overcome this.

Just keeping it real..

I'm beyond the headache stage, now I'm just determined and flat out stubborn. Not a all of my beers have been dumpers, although most of the browns,porters and stouts have been. The IPA's and Raspberry wheats have been decent, but I suspect the hops or fruit are covering up whatever the off taste is. I've had people watch my process and they've had little input as to what I was doing wrong. Although, they were drinking at the time and weren't critiquing my every move. I could never accept defeat and rely on my friend to make me beer. I would feel great shame. This would be like inviting my friend over to satisfy my wife because I couldn't!!

Here are my next steps: I'm going to brew an extract version of this recipe with purchased spring water this Friday. If it's still bad, I'm going to my friends house and make this exact (all-grain) recipe with his water, equipment and fermentation chamber. I may have him do the same with my equipment. This should tell me something of value.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Here's the answer: stick to brewing IPAs and Raspberry wheats.

 

[trav77]

You could try bottled spring water not distilled (cut back to 1 or 2 gal. batch) with no salts added, this won't be great beer but should make good beer.

Watch out if you use spring water though... often it's very high in bicarbonate and this will have an effect, hence my suggestion to try the primer's formula. It's pretty much guaranteed to get you close enough to target mash pH, flavour profile, etc. that you can eliminate water from the list of variables.

BTW some stores repackage salts to smaller quantities I always worry about this.

Way back in the early days of my brewing my mail order LHBS mistakenly repackaged malt on me and it was one of my first batches so I didn't realize but it was extreme. Can't remember exactly what it was supposed to be (med crystal maybe?) but it must have been black patent or something. Completely undrinkable beer. Of course now it seems so obvious that I should have known that was not the correct malt but sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

 

[mprowland]

Watch out if you use spring water though... often it's very high in bicarbonate and this will have an effect, hence my suggestion to try the primer's formula. It's pretty much guaranteed to get you close enough to target mash pH, flavour profile, etc. that you can eliminate water from the list of variables.

I like this idea better. I'll use primer's formula with my R.O. water. Before anyone asks, I do test my R.O. water with a TDS meter and it's around 003-004.

 

[trav77]

I like this idea better. I'll use primer's formula with my R.O. water. Before anyone asks, I do test my R.O. water with a TDS meter and it's around 003-004.

If your next plan is to do an extract batch then skip the primer altogether and just use straight up RO/DI water. No real need for the salts (this will also help eliminate the possibility that there is an issue with your salt additions).

 

[trav77]

Another idea (again, sorry if it's already been mentioned). The problem with extract is that you're then introducing more variables that don't apply to all-grain... stale extract, the extract "twang" etc.

Do you have anyone nearby that you can do a split batch with? Brew 10 gal and you take 1/2 home to ferment, package, etc. with your gear. That would probably be the easiest way to start to narrow down your list of process variables. If all you did was ferment it at home and you still have the problem then it must be your cold side process somewhere. Or vice versa, if it turns out great then it's your hot side.

Or even see if a local brewery you like will sell you 5 gal of wort on brewday. Who knows.

 

[McKnuckle]

I agree totally with @trav77 that you should brew a dark beer with straight, unadulterated RO water. You will rule out any mineral or low pH issues that way, and it will "work" technically even if it's not absolutely ideal. (I'm still looking forward to seeing your salt addition details later.)

 

[bbohanon]

I'm beyond the headache stage, now I'm just determined and flat out stubborn. Not a all of my beers have been dumpers, although most of the browns,porters and stouts have been. The IPA's and Raspberry wheats have been decent, but I suspect the hops or fruit are covering up whatever the off taste is. I've had people watch my process and they've had little input as to what I was doing wrong. Although, they were drinking at the time and weren't critiquing my every move. I could never accept defeat and rely on my friend to make me beer. I would feel great shame. This would be like inviting my friend over to satisfy my wife because I couldn't!!

Here are my next steps: I'm going to brew an extract version of this recipe with purchased spring water this Friday. If it's still bad, I'm going to my friends house and make this exact (all-grain) recipe with his water, equipment and fermentation chamber. I may have him do the same with my equipment. This should tell me something of value.

I am betting if you make sure EVERYTHING is properly cleaned (no perfume soaps here!) and sanitized (if you think its clean, clean it again), use spring water and brew the extract beer EXACTLY as the recipe calls for and ferment at the right temp with good (proper pitch count) healthy yeast, it will turn out stellar.
If you can brew up good beer with extract kits, then you know its your all grain process that is "off" somewhere.

Some things to consider if your beer is getting worse in the keg but tastes great coming out of the fermenter (and trust me, this can be a bitch to chase down):

- Your CO2 lines - make sure you are not using old hoses or hoses that may have had beer backup into them.

- Your CO2 supply - make sure you are using CO2 from a HB source..I had a friend who had a tank filled at a welder and got some off tastes from the CO2 fill on that tank..he ended up trading the tank in and his problems went away (he ended up swapping out the hoses as well once he dumped that CO2 tank).

- Carb PROPERLY..it takes time..I leave mine on the gas for 2 weeks at the proper carb temp and let it just carb slowly. Carbonic bite sucks when "speeding" up the CO2 process. Carbonic bite is a "metal-like" taste in the beer..YUCK

- Make sure your keg is cleaned 100% as well as all posts/poppets/diptubes/etc. CLEAN IT WELL or you will get funkyness in the keg. Had a keg once that whatever was in it before I got it, I just could not get it 100% removed (and I tried everything) and every stinking time I used it, it tossed off flavors in the beer that went in it. I ended up getting rid of it.

In all seriousness, I hope you do track this issue down. Keep us posted.

 

[Kharnynb]

ok...i'm just posting this to track the thread....but i'm adding my vote to just using plain ro water, or just chucking out your salts and getting new ones....