SS Brewtech 1BBL Unitank - BEWARE!!

[fljim]

So I have tried on multiple forums to get any answer that would corroborate SS Brewtech's engineer. NOTHING. I have been homebrewing for almost 20 YEARS and never have I had such a BAD experience.

Here's the setup.
SS Brewtech 1BBL UNJACKETED Unitank with neoprene cover
BrewBuilt™ IceMaster Max 2 Glycol Chiller 1700btu 4.5 Gal. Tank - 30% glycol solution
1/2" Silicon lines running from Chiller to Unitank coils (10')

I put 30 gallons of water in the unitank.
I set the glycol chiller to -2C (coils NEVER freeze over)
I set the glycol pump to 33F (lines that run to/from unitank coil)

With this setup, I cannot get the liquid in the tank to drop below 41-42F. I have tried this when the ambient temperature was 79F and 65F. No difference. Still sweats like crazy.

Here are the pump times for 1 GALLON:

1) The volume as listed, is at 1 minute 18 seconds.
2) Taking the coil out and connecting it directly to the chiller put it at 1 minute 8 seconds.
3) Disconnecting everything and putting a lineout from the chiller into my gallon pitcher, put the time at 24 seconds.

Now I have everything the SS Brewtech support has asked me to but nothing is chilling this thing down below 41. Now, ***because the entire process of "solving the problem" has taken so long, I am stuck with this thing.***

MY THEORY is that living here in Florida REQUIRES at jacketed Unitank. SS Brewtech disagrees, but cannot manage to solve this little dilemma, nor can they prove me wrong. I believe that I am fighting physics and that unless I have a larger coil, there cannot be enough glycol passing through to cool the liquid fast enough before it draws heat from the environment and wicks away.

FAIR WARNING: If you buy from SS Brewtech, and you have problems, GOOD LUCK getting any real support. I have seen other people posting warnings about this company but, like an idiot, I didn't do my research on them until I started finding a serious lack of support.

BAD COMPANY, DO NOT BUY. There are too many other good brewing companies out there to deal with a company that couldn't give a rats rear about you once they have your money.

 

[Deadalus]

On the Morebeer site, for the Icemaster 2, the description says one barrel fermenter with neoprene can be cold crashed to 38F with an ambient of 75F and a 20% glycol solution. Your ambients were 79 and 65 so close on those, you have a neoprene cover. I don't know if your 30% solution might be a problem. All I know from chemistry is that sometimes solutions have a sweet spot and that over and under are not as good. Don't know about glycol solutions. Then one other thing is that I read recently that wort has a lower specific heat capacity than water but it was just one reference and I wanted to investigate it further. You are using water in the unitank which if higher specific heat would require more energy to be removed so perhaps you are just missing 38F by the 3-4 degrees (because you are not testing wort)? The Icemaster 2 has a small tank and is not as big as the Icemaster 4 or the 100 (same size I think). I just got the Icemaster 100 and it has an 8 gallon tank and is 2600 BTU. So it might be the small chiller with the big unitank. The tank on the Icemaster 2 is only 4.5 gallons and 1700BTU. Brewbuilt seemed to be still doing testing of various configurations it seemed to me when I watched a video or two.

 

[Deadalus]

Your lines are 1/2" ID? Could be but the barbs on mine were 3/8". More of a general question that is. However, are you lines insulated too? I'm not sure how much effect having the lines insulated might be.

 

[Deadalus]

I was thinking of antifreeze (ethylene glycol) in water and freezing points when I mentioned a sweet spot. At around 60% ethylene glycol in water the freezing point is lowest. On either side of that percentage, the freezing point is higher. That doesn't happen on the graphs I see for propylene glycol. The freezing point just goes lower moving from 20 to 30%. I am seeing a figure that shows that the specific heat capacity of the propylene glycol solutions decreases some when moving from 20% to 30%.

I have a very limited physics background as well though.

 

[cfrazier77]

Humidity is a factor in thermal transfer from the outside of the tank to the environment. What you are experiencing sounds normal to what I get from mine, an old brewhemoth. To go lower in your ambient temp you need jacketed, on my experience. If my ambient is high 50s I can only get down to 37 degrees with my glycol set at 27.

 

[Indian_villager]

Humidity is a factor in thermal transfer from the outside of the tank to the environment. What you are experiencing sounds normal to what I get from mine, an old brewhemoth. To go lower in your ambient temp you need jacketed, on my experience. If my ambient is high 50s I can only get down to 37 degrees with my glycol set at 27.

This, ambient humidity will impact your rate of ambient loss more than a couple degrees of air temp. If you are in florida as you state you are going to be hindered. Have you considered trying a higher capacity pump to push the glycol through the coils? Without seeing how the temperature in your chiller is impacted it sounds like you cant flow fast enough through the coils, or your coils don't have enough surface area. Either way the pump sounds like something cheaper to try.

 

[Deadalus]

This, ambient humidity will impact your rate of ambient loss more than a couple degrees of air temp. If you are in florida as you state you are going to be hindered. Have you considered trying a higher capacity pump to push the glycol through the coils? Without seeing how the temperature in your chiller is impacted it sounds like you cant flow fast enough through the coils, or your coils don't have enough surface area. Either way the pump sounds like something cheaper to try.

The fastest reading on the pump that was recorded was one gallon in 24 seconds. That's 2.5 gallons a minute or 150 gallons per hour. I don't know if glycol solutions pump slower, but that seems kind of slow, consider checking into how fast the supplied pump is supposed to be. I put two of these Vivosun pumps in my glycol chiller. On sale just for a few days at Amazon, $17.99 and they are 800 gph. I've only used this pump for one batch, I have a third one of these pumps that I have been using in a keg washer for several years however and it has performed well. Just wanted to note, the lowest temperature value for it is 32F but I suspect that is because below that water would be frozen. I don't expect too much of a problem going down 5 degrees with the glycol solution.

 

[Indian_villager]

The fastest reading on the pump that was recorded was one gallon in 24 seconds. That's 2.5 gallons a minute or 150 gallons per hour. I don't know if glycol solutions pump slower, but that seems kind of slow, consider checking into how fast the supplied pump is supposed to be. I put two of these Vivosun pumps in my glycol chiller. On sale just for a few days at Amazon, $17.99 and they are 800 gph. I've only used this pump for one batch, I have a third one of these pumps that I have been using in a keg washer for several years however and it has performed well. Just wanted to note, the lowest temperature value for it is 32F but I suspect that is because below that water would be frozen. I don't expect too much of a problem going down 5 degrees with the glycol solution.

Is that flow rate straight off the pump or through the circuit? Most of these aquarium style pumps have very low pressure capabilities and they slow down hard with tubing and the coil. If you can measure the flow through the circuit, and more importantly the temperature of the liquid coming back. If it is only one or two degrees higher than the supply side you don't have enough coil or insulation. If the delta is higher than that you could improve with more flow.

 

[Deadalus]

Is that flow rate straight off the pump or through the circuit? Most of these aquarium style pumps have very low pressure capabilities and they slow down hard with tubing and the coil. If you can measure the flow through the circuit, and more importantly the temperature of the liquid coming back. If it is only one or two degrees higher than the supply side you don't have enough coil or insulation. If the delta is higher than that you could improve with more flow.

Which rate? I used #3 from the initial thread post (24 secconds to a gallon) and the 800gph is what the manufacturer states for the pump I linked. The OP had a hose directly to a pitcher so about as apples to apples as possible. I was looking at the Brewbuilt site when I posted but didn't see the flow rates listed for the pump. However, I thought I saw them somewhere and at Morebeer the pumps are listed as 800 gph and 1300gph. Since the OP's unit is the Icemaster Max 2, the smaller of their two offerings, I would guess the pump is supposed to be the smaller one at 800gph. Which it doesn't seem to be doing. My pump has a little dial vent to adjust the input. Maybe the OP's pump has one and it is set too low? I just leave it open on my keg washer pump since I have rotary sprayer on it. I also don't think that Brewbuilt's stock pump is much different than the Vivosun.

Yes the friction in the tubing will slow it down, longer runs are more in that regard, as well as fittings in the path. Checking the return temp would be a good idea.

I'm not having any trouble with mine but mine's the bigger glycol chiller model (Icemaster 100) with only one 7 gallon coiled uni currently attached. I am pretty sure I left the vents on the pumps open. I run mine through 6 ft of silicon tubing, insulated, with one quick disconnect (2 pcs) on the coil end. The line enters the chiller through a barbed coupling and then because of the chiller design, I put a 90 degree bulkhead on the inner cover to drop down into the tank. I don't currently have a 90 right off the coil in/out but I will be putting two on for the next batch. So 3/8" silicone tubing> plastic barbed 90>male QD >female QD> 6 ft tubing>SS barbed coupling> short tubing>SS barbed 90> short tubing>tank. I've been cold crashing a batch for several days now at 37F without a problem. It's neither hot nor humid here currently. My uni has a neoprene jacket. There was some condensation on the exposed tubing near the fittings but nothing of note elsewhere. I'll have my other uni (also a 7 gallon) online probably in a few weeks. This batch is almost done so I will need to brew two more times to see how the system performs under additional demand.

 

[fljim]

Humidity is a factor in thermal transfer from the outside of the tank to the environment. What you are experiencing sounds normal to what I get from mine, an old brewhemoth. To go lower in your ambient temp you need jacketed, on my experience. If my ambient is high 50s I can only get down to 37 degrees with my glycol set at 27.

EXACTLY. Knowing the humidity in Florida (or they could have at least asked), they should have warned me, but instead say no one else has these problems. Sorry but I cry BS...

 

[fljim]

This, ambient humidity will impact your rate of ambient loss more than a couple degrees of air temp. If you are in florida as you state you are going to be hindered. Have you considered trying a higher capacity pump to push the glycol through the coils? Without seeing how the temperature in your chiller is impacted it sounds like you cant flow fast enough through the coils, or your coils don't have enough surface area. Either way the pump sounds like something cheaper to try.

Yes, I believe you are right, but I posted that in the OP.

"I believe that I am fighting physics and that unless I have a larger coil, there cannot be enough glycol passing through to cool the liquid fast enough before it draws heat from the environment and wicks away."​

I will address the pump in the next reply.

 

[Deadalus]

If you wanted to increase the flow rate, you already have two pumps. Assuming they are both working fine, you could put them in parallel and that would increase the flow rate.

 

[fljim]

Which rate? I used #3 from the initial thread post (24 secconds to a gallon) and the 800gph is what the manufacturer states for the pump I linked. The OP had a hose directly to a pitcher so about as apples to apples as possible. I was looking at the Brewbuilt site when I posted but didn't see the flow rates listed for the pump. However, I thought I saw them somewhere and at Morebeer the pumps are listed as 800 gph and 1300gph. Since the OP's unit is the Icemaster Max 2, the smaller of their two offerings, I would guess the pump is supposed to be the smaller one at 800gph. Which it doesn't seem to be doing. My pump has a little dial vent to adjust the input. Maybe the OP's pump has one and it is set too low? I just leave it open on my keg washer pump since I have rotary sprayer on it. I also don't think that Brewbuilt's stock pump is much different than the Vivosun.

Yes the friction in the tubing will slow it down, longer runs are more in that regard, as well as fittings in the path. Checking the return temp would be a good idea.

I'm not having any trouble with mine but mine's the bigger glycol chiller model (Icemaster 100) with only one 7 gallon coiled uni currently attached. I am pretty sure I left the vents on the pumps open. I run mine through 6 ft of silicon tubing, insulated, with one quick disconnect (2 pcs) on the coil end. The line enters the chiller through a barbed coupling and then because of the chiller design, I put a 90 degree bulkhead on the inner cover to drop down into the tank. I don't currently have a 90 right off the coil in/out but I will be putting two on for the next batch. So 3/8" silicone tubing> plastic barbed 90>male QD >female QD> 6 ft tubing>SS barbed coupling> short tubing>SS barbed 90> short tubing>tank. I've been cold crashing a batch for several days now at 37F without a problem. It's neither hot nor humid here currently. My uni has a neoprene jacket. There was some condensation on the exposed tubing near the fittings but nothing of note elsewhere. I'll have my other uni (also a 7 gallon) online probably in a few weeks. This batch is almost done so I will need to brew two more times to see how the system performs under additional demand.

After speaking with both MoreBeer and SSB, they both agreed that the flow volume as reported from the pump would be fine (and if I'm not mistaken, SSB's glycol chiller is the same). I agreed to return the MoreBeer chiller and get the SSB chiller if they could guarantee me it would do better. SSB's engineer DECLINED to say that. Morebeer offered to take my original chiller back and give me a larger one but they said the only difference was the reservoir (and 4 connections instead of 2); the pump volume was the same. At the time I was more than willing to spend the extra bucks on the chiller since I had tried so very many things that didn't do ANYTHING.

Addressing Condensation & Temp:
I don't just have condensation; I have a LOT of condensation. I need a pan underneath the unitank to catch it and empty it on a regular basis... This tells me my "cooling" is being removed by the ambient air. This is my primary argument for a jacketed tank. SS Brewtech cannot PROVE, in any meaningful way, that an unjacketed tank in Southern Florida can chill beyond 42. I have tried this procedure when the ambient temp was 85 and when it was 65. No change.

Addressing the tubing size:
I tried both 3/8 and 1/2. Didn't change anything.

Addressing the glycol percentage:
I originally had a 20% solution (as does pretty much everyone on the planet), but I upped the glycol because the SSB ENGINEER suggested it as a solution. I have spent countless hours and money performing every "suggestion" they had and now I am stuck with the UNjacketed tank because SSB won't take it back... They will bleed you dry through hours of "testing" and money to try all their suggestion, but the one thing they don't want you to do is send the tank back during the period where they have to take it back. They will instead offer to "help" and tell you they have NEVER had this problem with all the customers they have throughout the US.

It's mind-numbing and I just can't believe that a manufacturer like SSB won't admit they're wrong.

 

[fljim]

If you wanted to increase the flow rate, you already have two pumps. Assuming they are both working fine, you could put them in parallel and that would increase the flow rate.

I thought about that. I also thought about the fact that the liquid would have to enter a "Y" at some point and I didn't know how great a restriction the two would form. I've also been a little hesitant since the OEM didn't mention it.

Do you have that kind of setup? Trust me when I say I'll pretty much try anything at this point...

 

[fljim]

If you wanted to increase the flow rate, you already have two pumps. Assuming they are both working fine, you could put them in parallel and that would increase the flow rate.

Gonna do it. Here's the Y.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CQ4NTL2Y?smid=A2LU1U0B94UC2L&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp&th=1

Should be perfect.

 

[Whisky River]

Have you tried switching the glycol connections as your temperature approaches 40 degrees?

 

[fljim]

Have you tried switching the glycol connections as your temperature approaches 40 degrees?

No. Well, let me say that I tried that from ambient to 42 degrees, but not once the tank reached 42 degrees. I'm willing to try that even if it may be messy.

I have quick disconnects but I think they only connect one way.

 

[Deadalus]

I thought about that. I also thought about the fact that the liquid would have to enter a "Y" at some point and I didn't know how great a restriction the two would form. I've also been a little hesitant since the OEM didn't mention it.

Do you have that kind of setup? Trust me when I say I'll pretty much try anything at this point...

Gonna do it. Here's the Y.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CQ4NTL2Y?smid=A2LU1U0B94UC2L&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp&th=1

Should be perfect.

I did it for a different project. I set up a manifold to clean my four tap hjockey box, so I could do all the taps at once. I was using my Spike Flow though. I added in my Riptide. I had been running the flow in series through the taps. Just changing to parallet with a manifold was sufficient but I also added in the Riptide in parallel and that was a faster flow for sure. I think you are better off with the Wye vs a tee. Tees and 90 have greater pressure reductions than couplings and 45s but it's dependent on size and material as well. I can't say I have seen the pressure reduction for wyes in a chart but it would seem like a wye would be less than a tee.

 

[Deadalus]

After speaking with both MoreBeer and SSB, they both agreed that the flow volume as reported from the pump would be fine (and if I'm not mistaken, SSB's glycol chiller is the same). I agreed to return the MoreBeer chiller and get the SSB chiller if they could guarantee me it would do better. SSB's engineer DECLINED to say that. Morebeer offered to take my original chiller back and give me a larger one but they said the only difference was the reservoir (and 4 connections instead of 2); the pump volume was the same. At the time I was more than willing to spend the extra bucks on the chiller since I had tried so very many things that didn't do ANYTHING.

Addressing Condensation & Temp:
I don't just have condensation; I have a LOT of condensation. I need a pan underneath the unitank to catch it and empty it on a regular basis... This tells me my "cooling" is being removed by the ambient air. This is my primary argument for a jacketed tank. SS Brewtech cannot PROVE, in any meaningful way, that an unjacketed tank in Southern Florida can chill beyond 42. I have tried this procedure when the ambient temp was 85 and when it was 65. No change.

Addressing the tubing size:
I tried both 3/8 and 1/2. Didn't change anything.

Addressing the glycol percentage:
I originally had a 20% solution (as does pretty much everyone on the planet), but I upped the glycol because the SSB ENGINEER suggested it as a solution. I have spent countless hours and money performing every "suggestion" they had and now I am stuck with the UNjacketed tank because SSB won't take it back... They will bleed you dry through hours of "testing" and money to try all their suggestion, but the one thing they don't want you to do is send the tank back during the period where they have to take it back. They will instead offer to "help" and tell you they have NEVER had this problem with all the customers they have throughout the US.

It's mind-numbing and I just can't believe that a manufacturer like SSB won't admit they're wrong.

SSBT has a small unit that is 1/5hp but their next size up is 3/8hp. That's is the same size listed for the Max2, Max4, and 100. The reservoire on the SSBT 3/8 is big-10 gallons and they list 3576 btus/hr. Brewbuilts Max 4 & 100 are 8 gallons/2600 BTUsand the Max 2 is 4.5 gallons 1700 BTUs. I think the pumps are probably all those 800 gph size. SSBT says you can put four 1 BBL fermenters on their 3/8 hp but Brewbuilt says just one. I read a number of different user reviews/chat and it leaned towards perhaps some companies over inflate the abilities. SSBT's 1/5hp would maybe work for 1 BBL but that particular model was one that I saw people say it was perhaps overrated. I saw similar discussion about Penguin chillers as their tanks I think are smaller. Lot of debate about the capabilities of the available models. I went with the 100 because it had the bigger tank. I think at the largest I would only ever have two 7s and a 14. I am starting out with just 2 sevens, but I wanted room for three pumps eventually and perhaps one jacketed 14.

I hear ya' I'm not trying to defend SSBT. My unis are unjacketed X2s. One barrel seemed to be the point where manufacturers were jacketing the conicals but I didn't look at that size at all. Their coil could be under-sized in some fashion perhaps, might be something to compare if possible to other companies.

Just a note for other readers, I used a straight barbed coupling on the inside cover not a bulkhead 90. The tubing forms the 90 to head into the tank downward. That's usually the better choice as the 90 will decrease the pressure. Pex is a good place to do that particularly for barbed fittings.

 

[Deadalus]

No. Well, let me say that I tried that from ambient to 42 degrees, but not once the tank reached 42 degrees. I'm willing to try that even if it may be messy.

I have quick disconnects but I think they only connect one way.

I thought it was around 37F which is why I didn't mention it as you were above that. But if it works, I didn't buy the dual valved QDs for this reason. I bought these single line QDS then the lines can be reversed a lot easier.

 

[Bobby_M]

Wrap in thicker insulation and do your best to seal gaps to keep air from getting behind it. Even covering the legs will help.

 

[fljim]

SSBT has a small unit that is 1/5hp but their next size up is 3/8hp. That's is the same size listed for the Max2, Max4, and 100. The reservoire on the SSBT 3/8 is big-10 gallons and they list 3576 btus/hr. Brewbuilts Max 4 & 100 are 8 gallons/2600 BTUsand the Max 2 is 4.5 gallons 1700 BTUs. I think the pumps are probably all those 800 gph size. SSBT says you can put four 1 BBL fermenters on their 3/8 hp but Brewbuilt says just one. I read a number of different user reviews/chat and it leaned towards perhaps some companies over inflate the abilities. SSBT's 1/5hp would maybe work for 1 BBL but that particular model was one that I saw people say it was perhaps overrated. I saw similar discussion about Penguin chillers as their tanks I think are smaller. Lot of debate about the capabilities of the available models. I went with the 100 because it had the bigger tank. I think at the largest I would only ever have two 7s and a 14. I am starting out with just 2 sevens, but I wanted room for three pumps eventually and perhaps one jacketed 14.

I hear ya' I'm not trying to defend SSBT. My unis are unjacketed X2s. One barrel seemed to be the point where manufacturers were jacketing the conicals but I didn't look at that size at all. Their coil could be under-sized in some fashion perhaps, might be something to compare if possible to other companies.

Just a note for other readers, I used a straight barbed coupling on the inside cover not a bulkhead 90. The tubing forms the 90 to head into the tank downward. That's usually the better choice as the 90 will decrease the pressure. Pex is a good place to do that particularly for barbed fittings.

I think they could solve the problem by going 1/2" instead of 3/8" for the coil. That would reduce pressure and allow for a greater volume. That's what cools it; volume, not pressure. Maybe SSBT should try that instead of talking to me like Officer Barbrady from South Park, "all is well... nothing to see here."

 

[Indian_villager]

I think they could solve the problem by going 1/2" instead of 3/8" for the coil. That would reduce pressure and allow for a greater volume. That's what cools it; volume, not pressure. Maybe SSBT should try that instead of talking to me like Officer Barbrady from South Park, "all is well... nothing to see here."

Higher delta pressure = greater volumetric flow. I use an 800gph pump to push sanitizer through my cfc. By the time it goes through everything the pressure drop reduces it to ~1gpm vs the rated ~13. This is why on larger industrial chillers you'll even see rotary vane pumps for increased pressure to have really good circulation flow.

As for your comment about sweating and needing a pan underneath. It really sounds like you could use more insulation.

Your options in order of increasing cost:

1) Larger pump to try and push more liquid.
2) More insulation
3) Custom cooling coil made of 1/2" tubing (see norcal for custom solutions)

Best of luck.