Spike Gas Manifold Safety Warning

[CodeSection]

I just received this via email...

Dear Brewmasters,

Thank you for your past purchase of a Spike gas manifold, we certainly appreciate your business!

We’ve recently noticed some customers commenting and using the gas manifold as a spunding valve during pressure fermenting. A spunding valve is used to release pressure at a pre-designated pressure level, set by the brewer. The Spike gas manifold, however, was not engineered to be used in the same fashion as a spunding valve. Instead, it was engineered to be a safety pressure release during forced carbonation and pressure transfers.

Using the Spike gas manifold to pressure ferment during primary fermentation can lead to unsafe conditions. When we refer to pressure fermentation we mean adding wort to your conical, pitching yeast, and then sealing off the fermenter with the Spike gas manifold instead of a pressure blow-off (e.g., an airlock, a blow-off tube, etc.). During primary fermentation, the krausen can slowly rise filling the lid head space. If the Spike gas manifold is used instead of a pressure blow-off, the krausen can fill the gas manifold and clog the safety pressure release valve. With the safety pressure release valve clogged and the fermentation reaction creating additional pressure with nowhere to go, eventually a failure can occur that can result in a substantial mess, and potentially an injury.

For these reasons, we do not recommend that you use the Spike gas manifold to ferment under pressure (i.e. during primary fermentation). We at Spike are continuing to investigate reliable and safe options for pressure fermentation. When we identify such an option, we will let you know.

If you have any questions, please reach out to our service team at [email protected]

Thanks,
Team Spike

 

[day_trippr]

Someone done got blown up

 

[eric19312]

Wait I thought fermenting under pressure was unitank feature. Part of why I bought mine...


https://www.morebeer.com/category/fermenting-pressure.html

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/sspunding-valve

https://spikebrewing.com/blogs/ask-a-pro/pressurized-fermentation

 

[mongoose33]

Well, shoot. That was one of the reasons I bought the Spike, so I could essentially do spunding.

I'm going to have to think about this. I don't let the PRV act as a spunding valve, I wait until there's about 7 or so points of gravity remaining and then seal up the fermenter.

One thing I may look into is using my 1.5" sight glass under the PRV so I could see if the krausen is approaching the top. I mostly do 5-gallon brews in my CF10 so I think this is a non-issue in those cases, but with a vigorous fermentation and a too-full fermenter, I can see how the krausen would invade the pressure manifold.

I suppose, too, that I could just have a blowoff barb or cane on there and when I get to the 7 points or so of gravity remaining, simply quickly swap the blowoff barb for the pressure manifold. It would admit almost no air to do that, and with the fermentation still ongoing, that oxygen should be used up.

Thoughts on all this?

 

[CodeSection]

Wait I thought fermenting under pressure was unitank feature. Part of why I bought mine...


https://www.morebeer.com/category/fermenting-pressure.html

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/sspunding-valve

https://spikebrewing.com/blogs/ask-a-pro/pressurized-fermentation

I think in Spike's case, at least how I understand it, they are talking about:

1. Using a blowoff tube or cane for primary fermentation to avoid clogging up their PRV. Then attach the PRV to the lid or to your blowoff cane when carbonating or doing a closed transfer; and
2. Their PRV is not a spunding valve. They did not say you could not attach a spunding valve to the PRV. In that case, the PRV is still intact for primary safety....

In the SSB link:
"Lastly, a final note on safety, always leave the fixed-pressure PRV included with the Unitank in place, never exceed the maximum rated working pressure of the vessel at anytime during operation."

At the bottom of your Spike link:
"In summary
Brewing science in this arena is not well documented. To encourage a healthy and complete fermentation, the traditional blow off method remains the gold standard among professionals. Proceed at your own risk!"

I'm surprised MoreBeer does not have a warning disclaimer...

 

[Blazinlow86]

Not to be a smartass but this all seems pretty common sense. The vessel is designed to follow a typical professional process. As far as I'm aware spunding is more a homebrew cheat to save money on co2 and isn't typically done at the professional level. Using the carb stone to carbonate is quick,easy and precise. Use the blowoff for the first few days and then switch over the pressure manifold once the fermentation slows down. Cold crash and add the stone and your done the next day. It's not a spike brand issue and would be the same for any vessel not rated for 30+psi. I appreciate everyone has there own way of doing things but if spunding is something your interested in a Corny keg is a better option. Cheers

 

[gman1974]

I got the same e-mail today. Interesting since I'm quite certain Spike marketed this product to be able to ferment under pressure. I'm also quite sure they were there prior, but all references to fermenting under pressure have been scrubbed from their webpage.

This particular part of their communication is what raises my eyebrow and leads me to believe this is CYA for possible litigation purposes.
"When we refer to pressure fermentation we mean adding wort to your conical, pitching yeast, and then sealing off the fermenter with the Spike gas manifold instead of a pressure blow-off (e.g., an airlock, a blow-off tube, etc.)."

I call BS on this and not at all the bill of goods we were sold prior. I would hope their would be more transparency here on this and that Spike do right by their customers.

 

[Tom R]

Aren't they just saying that if you're going to spund in their unitanks, use a spunding valve designed for the purpose, not their PRV manifold?

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[gman1974]

Aren't they just saying that if you're going to spund in their unitanks, use a spunding valve designed for the purpose, not their PRV manifold?

Seems reasonable to me.

"For these reasons, we do not recommend that you use the Spike gas manifold to ferment under pressure" I don't believe that is what they are saying Tom. I hope they do come up with a safe alternative. If this were not the case, I would have opted for the competitors product instead.

 

[Blazinlow86]

"For these reasons, we do not recommend that you use the Spike gas manifold to ferment under pressure" I don't believe that is what they are saying Tom. I hope they do come up with a safe alternative. If this were not the case, I would have opted for the competitors product instead.

But what competitors product offer that?

 

[Tom R]

Perhaps that is their intended meaning.
If I were Spike and wanted to convey that meaning I would state "We do not recommend fermenting under pressure in this product".

I tend to take things literally, and sometimes that is a problem.

 

[gman1974]

But what competitors product offer that?

SSbrewtech does. Their unitanks are marketed for fermentation under pressure.

 

[eric19312]

SSbrewtech does. Their unitanks are marketed for fermentation under pressure.

I thought Spikes were marketed for fermenting under pressure too. That certainly didn’t appear to be a differentiating factor when I was choosing between the two. I think Spike lawyered up, probably getting ready to sell out.

 

[Blazinlow86]

SSbrewtech does. Their unitanks are marketed for fermentation under pressure.

Ss unitanks have a 18 psi working pressure vs 15psi on the spike. That's no were near enough to handle sealing the fermentor during primary either. It would just allow for a bigger bang. cheers

 

[eric19312]

Ss unitanks have a 18 psi working pressure vs 15psi on the spike. That's no were near enough to handle sealing the fermentor during primary either. It would just allow for a bigger bang. cheers

According to SSBrewtech website 15 PSI operating pressure

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/half-bbl-unitank

 

[Blazinlow86]

According to SSBrewtech website 15 PSI operating pressure

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/half-bbl-unitank

Ah there lowering it then. It started at 30 max psi and then was changed to 18psi operating pressure at some point. I imagine a few people have filled there cf to the brim while having it sealed up and the PVR got gummed up causing the lid to blow off as it would on any other conical on the market homebrew or pro. You can still ferment under pressure with the correct amount of headspace but spike cant recommend it anymore probably for liability reasons. Cheers

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't want to speak for Spike but the issue is that the PRV passageways are small and could clog easily if you're pushing the capacity, with an aggressive overpitch, at a higher temperature, etc, etc. Will it absolutely clog at the first glop of krausen? Probably not but it just takes one fermenter to go boom to scare the crap out of the user but never so much as a corporation trying to survive in ever so litigious times..

 

[Vale71]

"For these reasons, we do not recommend that you use the Spike gas manifold to ferment under pressure" I don't believe that is what they are saying Tom. I hope they do come up with a safe alternative. If this were not the case, I would have opted for the competitors product instead.

English is not my first language but when they write "we do not recommend that you use the Spike gas manifold" how I understand it is that they do not recommend using this particular accessories to ferment under pressure, not that they do not recommend doing pressure fermentation with their Unitank at all.
There are PRVs and spunding valves that can be fitted to any fermenter with standard TC attachments, it's just annoying that Spike is not selling them and one would have to procure them from a third party but it's not the end of the world.

 

[Vale71]

As far as I'm aware spunding is more a homebrew cheat to save money on co2 and isn't typically done at the professional level.

You couldn't have gotten that more wrong if you had tried. Spunding is a typical commercial level process (and has been for hundreds of years BTW) it's homebrewers that have only recently started doing it thanks to the availability of pressure-rated fermentation vessels at typical homebrew scale.

 

[Blazinlow86]

You couldn't have gotten that more wrong if you had tried. Spunding is a typical commercial level process (and has been for hundreds of years BTW) it's homebrewers that have only recently started doing it thanks to the availability of pressure-rated fermentation vessels at typical homebrew scale.

There sealing there conicals from day one and fermenting under 15 psi as mentioned in post #1? Any specific examples of the ones doing that? You couldn't have got that more wrong if you tried at least in my area. The commercial guys here still start off with a blowoff in a bucket typically and only seal it with a spunding valve near the end. Ive always done the same since day 1 for same reasons spike mentioned. I did use the spunding valve set at 2 psi from day one once when I couldn't find my blowoff hose but that was a 12 gallon batch in my cf15 so I wasn't to concerned about the headspace issue. Cheers

 

[SpikeBrewing]

We saw this post pop up and wanted to chime in and answer any questions you all might have.

Over the last few months we've seen a lot of people talking about spunding and pressure fermentation. We've seen some cringe-worthy pictures of different setups and wanted to send out a message as a word of warning.
-We've seen a couple pictures with valves placed before the PRV. If this valve is closed during fermentation then the PRV is rendered useless and the tank no longer has any pressure release.
-We've also seen the manifold placed at the bottom of the TC racking arm. If the krausen goes into the blow off it can get into the manifold and clog the PRV.
-We've had people ask if they can just pitch yeast and cap the blow off port. This is essentially creating a bomb; DON'T DO THIS.

We've just seen too many people that have read an article or thread about spunding or pressure fermenting without understanding the dangers or how to safely do it.

Again we always have customers safety top of mind. We wanted to send out a cautionary message so people can double check their setups and don't ruin any expensive equipment or worse hurt themselves. Remember pressure is extremely dangerous. Pressure fermenting has elevated risks as if the PRV clogs you now have a reaction occuring in the tank that is generating more pressure with nowhere to go. We typically do not advise pressure fermenting due to these risks and because we've seen too many new brewers trying this method out without a proper setup. If pressure fermenting is something you'd still like to try we recommend purchasing a spunding valve while also using our pressure release valve. This word of warning goes for all equipment and not just ours. Please be safe when dealing with pressure!!

 

[Vale71]

Hear, hear.

With safety there is no compromising, ever.

 

[Vale71]

There sealing there conicals from day one and fermenting under 15 psi as mentioned in post #1? Any specific examples of the ones doing that? You couldn't have got that more wrong if you tried at least in my area. The commercial guys here still start off with a blowoff in a bucket typically and only seal it with a spunding valve near the end. Ive always done the same since day 1 for same reasons spike mentioned. I did use the spunding valve set at 2 psi from day one once when I couldn't find my blowoff hose but that was a 12 gallon batch in my cf15 so I wasn't to concerned about the headspace issue. Cheers

You mentioned spunding, if you meant pressure fermentation you should have said that instead.
And yes, pressure fermentation started off in commercial brewing as a way to brew lagers even cheaper, by shaving off as much as 3 days for primary and several weeks for conditioning.

Here is a list of a few breweries doing it:

Heineken
Augustiner
Hofbräu
Paulaner
Spaten
DAB

and the list goes on and on.

Pretty much every brewery that does lagers in the >200 hectos class does it with hardly any eception, it's no longer economically viable otherwise.

 

[Blazinlow86]

You mentioned spunding, if you meant pressure fermentation you should have said that instead.
And yes, pressure fermentation started off in commercial brewing as a way to brew lagers even cheaper, by shaving off as much as 3 days for primary and several weeks for conditioning.

Here is a list of a few breweries doing it:

Heineken
Augustiner
Hofbräu
Paulaner
Spaten
DAB

and the list goes on and on.

Pretty much every brewery that does lagers in the >200 hectos class does it with hardly any eception, it's no longer economically viable otherwise.

Semantics aside and to stay on topic you would agree that commercial brewers aren't sealing there conicals from day one with a 15 psi setting in order to naturally carbonate there beer like some homebrewers have started to do and therefore causing spike to make the statement? Cheers

 

[Vale71]

Semantics aside and to stay on topic you would agree that commercial brewers aren't sealing there conicals from day one with a 15 psi setting in order to naturally carbonate there beer like some homebrewers have started to do and therefore causing spike to make the statement? Cheers

It's not semantics as they're two completely different processes but if it suits you to see it that way...

You are right, commercial breweries (those still responsible for 90% of the world's production) actually seal their fermenters from day 0 (i.e. as soon as they are full) and let the pressure rise all the way to 3 bar following a pre-determined profile involving temperature and pressure. The goal of this is not and has never been natural carbonation, anybody who does this for this very reason really has no idea about what they're doing.

 

[Jag75]

You mentioned spunding, if you meant pressure fermentation you should have said that instead.
And yes, pressure fermentation started off in commercial brewing as a way to brew lagers even cheaper, by shaving off as much as 3 days for primary and several weeks for conditioning.

Here is a list of a few breweries doing it:

Heineken
Augustiner
Hofbräu
Paulaner
Spaten
DAB

and the list goes on and on.

Pretty much every brewery that does lagers in the >200 hectos class does it with hardly any eception, it's no longer economically viable otherwise.

Any reputable brewers lol

 

[Blazinlow86]

It's not semantics as they're two completely different processes but if it suits you to see it that way...

You are right, commercial breweries (those still responsible for 90% of the world's production) actually seal their fermenters from day 0 (i.e. as soon as they are full) and let the pressure rise all the way to 3 bar following a pre-determined profile involving temperature and pressure. The goal of this is not and has never been natural carbonation, anybody who does this for this very reason really has no idea about what they're doing.

Whats the official line in the sand of when fermenting under pressure becomes spunding as there the same process just done at different times. my point is that at least were i live i can go to the 150+ craft breweries and non will be sealing there conicals from day one using a 15 psi prv to ferment under pressure/spund whatever you want to call it. Because in my area we only have a few macro breweries even if they are sealing there conicals from day one using a 15 psi prv to ferment under pressure/spund as this thread is based on there still the minority. its probably 150 to 10. anyway no need to debate this one anymore. its getting off topic now

 

[eric19312]

we recommend purchasing a spunding valve while also using our pressure release valve.

Thanks for the clarification @SpikeBrewing makes sense and certainly don't want to see my fantastic new CF15 either get damaged or worse.

I am not sure I understand how adding the spunding valve helps the situation, at least it it is mounted on the manifold ball lock gas post. Krausen the reaches the PRV would reach the spunding valve pretty much same time and would seem like the spunding valve would clog even easier than the PRV.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

Thanks for the clarification @SpikeBrewing makes sense and certainly don't want to see my fantastic new CF15 either get damaged or worse.

I am not sure I understand how adding the spunding valve helps the situation, at least it it is mounted on the manifold ball lock gas post. Krausen the reaches the PRV would reach the spunding valve pretty much same time and would seem like the spunding valve would clog even easier than the PRV.

A spunding valve has an ID of 1"+. There is more force pushing up on the PRV with the larger diameter and the krausen can actually bubble through the larger openings rather than clogging. Even with a spunding valve we recommend using our PRV as it is designed to pop at 15psi. We would not recommend a Blichmann spunding valve as it has the same potential for clogging. We'd recommend a pro style similar to the ones SS and Stout offer. The key is the larger ID opening.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Any reputable brewers lol

Ouch did craft brewers kick your dog or something? What made you feel only macro breweries are reputable? we have lots of excellent smaller breweries making beers other than mass produced lagers that are very reputable. cheers