Sparge in BIAB BeerSmith?

[cotillion]

I am experimenting with BeerSmith 2, and I have selected the BIAB Full Body profile, since that's what I plan on doing. I also plan to do a little 1-2 gallon sparge rinse after I mashout, but I can't seem to find a way to ensure this is accounted for in the program. How do I account for this in BS so that my preboil volume won't be off?

 

[deepcdan99]

I do full volume BIAB with no sparge and hit 85% efficiency. It's personal choice, just curious why you choose to do one. Maybe you'll change my mind! Dont have time to dig to much into it now but I think it's in the Water Vols tab, kettle top up maybe???

 

[cotillion]

No wisdom to offer you here. If you're hitting 85, I'm sure you're fine. I was just going to do the rinse because I could and it didn't seem like too much trouble.

 

[deepcdan99]

I have done a partial sparge I guess, I calculate how much is needed for the full boil then subtract a quart or so and use that to rinse the grains out after the mash. Just pour it through them really, nothing to elaborate.

 

[weirdboy]

I don't personally trust Beersmith 2's calculations for BIAB. Maybe others have different luck, but when I tried it all the numbers for the mash were way, way off. I ended up making my own spreadsheet to do the necessary calculations.

 

[cotillion]

Well that worries me. I'm a noob.

 

[deepcdan99]

Post up what you got, I am sure someone will take a look and help you out.

 

[cotillion]

Is there a way to export the recipe to post on forums?

 

[tknice]

Is there a way to export the recipe to post on forums?

Sure, just highlight the recipe and select plain text where I have it circled. Then right click your recipe down in the lower pane and choose select all, then copy.

Paste it here.

 

[cotillion]

Basically, I am looking at a 5.5 gallon batch size.

13.5 lb grain bill
BS2 has my mash water vol at 6.98 with a 1.5 gallon top up in my allowance for a sparge (kettle is about 9 gal so it helps me save room too). I feel like that gives me a pretty good mash thickness for BIAB, but I am unsure of what else I need to be watching out for here. All the rest of the cooling loss, etc are default.

 

[cotillion]

Boil Size: 6.74 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.068 SG
Estimated Color: 30.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 25.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 76.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.9 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 74.1 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.3 %
1 lbs Caraamber (30.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.4 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4 7.4 %
4.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.9 %
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 12.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 9.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 15.0 Hop 8 3.6 IBUs
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 9 -
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Aroma Ste Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) Yeast 11 -


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 8.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 27.92 qt of water at 166.8 F 156.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 7 min 168.0 F 10 min

 

[cotillion]

dontmakefunofme!

 

[tknice]

dontmakefunofme!

we wouldn't dare!

 

[deepcdan99]

Basically, I am looking at a 5.5 gallon batch size.

13.5 lb grain bill
BS2 has my mash water vol at 6.98 with a 1.5 gallon top up in my allowance for a sparge (kettle is about 9 gal so it helps me save room too). I feel like that gives me a pretty good mash thickness for BIAB, but I am unsure of what else I need to be watching out for here. All the rest of the cooling loss, etc are default.

Does mash thickness matter when doing a BIAB? I have done a few and didnt even really worry about it. I do when using my mash tun, but didn't when I did my last BIAB.

 

[deepcdan99]

dontmakefunofme!

Is that German?

 

[weirdboy]

See, you can look at that recipe transcribed from Beersmith and tell the calculations are messed up. Batch size is 5.5 gallons, but the post-boil volume shown is 6.24 gallons. I am willing to wager you don't have 3/4 gallons of trub or other losses going into the fermenter.


I am not sure what your boil-off rate is, but I'm going to assume it is like mine and you boil off about 1 gallon per hour.

If you are using 13.8 lbs of grain, and you squeeze the bag after you pull it out, you want a total volume of around:

5.5 + 1.0 (for boil-off) + 1.4 (for grain absorption) = 7.9 gallons of water

If you do a full volume BIAB mash, your total volume in the pot, including the grain, would be a bit under 9 gallons total in the pot.

Here is a link to the calculator I wrote. There is also a calculator for sizing a regular MLT for 2- or 3-vessel brewing.

Google docs sizing spreadsheet


Again, the calculator assumes that you are using the full volume all in the same pot. If you want to dunk sparge in a different pot, or add the sparge water later, then use the same total volume, but put part of it in the other vessel. For a regular MLT I typically use 1.5 quarts/lb for the mash, which in your case is going to be approximately 5 gallons.


Also, DO NOT use the strike water temperatures indicated in Beersmith, as they are woefully wrong. Heat your strike water up to about 2 degrees higher than your target mash temp, and thoroughly stir in your grain. If you are a bit low, gently(!) heat your pot while stirring (be sure to transfer mass from the bottom to the top, not just side-to-side) until you are at the target mash temp. If you are high, stir until it cools down to the target.

 

[cotillion]

Very interesting. What makes BS so inaccurate when it comes to strike temp? I have read something that supports what you're saying here.

On the post boil volume issue, that could be a mistake of my own. I have a kettle with a faucet attached, and its slightly raised from the bottom. Assuming I don't tilt it over to get the most out of it, I simply assumed a loss of about .75 deadspace there. Could that have skewed things improperly?

I am about to start looking at the calculator you provided...hopefully won't be too over my head.

And thank you for the thoughtful responses

 

[deepcdan99]

DO NOT use the strike water temperatures indicated in Beersmith[/b], as they are woefully wrong. Heat your strike water up to about 2 degrees higher than your target mash temp, and thoroughly stir in your grain. If you are a bit low, gently(!) heat your pot while stirring (be sure to transfer mass from the bottom to the top, not just side-to-side) until you are at the target mash temp. If you are high, stir until it cools down to the target.

Only heat to 2 degress above mash temp? You'd loose much more than that when adding grains wouldnt you? Mine usually ends up about 12 above mash temp depending on the grain bill.

 

[cotillion]

Does mash thickness matter when doing a BIAB? I have done a few and didnt even really worry about it. I do when using my mash tun, but didn't when I did my last BIAB.

I don't know enough myself to be sure, but I feel like I've heard 2ish is good for BIAB. Maybe easier to stir? Hell I don't know.

 

[C-Rider]

Is that German?

I was bowling the other day and knocked down 9 pins in a row. Someone told me that I was using a German ball! I told him "nein" it was made in the USA.

 

[Grumpybumpy]

With a 9 gallon kettle, you're right, you'll probably have to sparge a couple of the gallons. I'd mash with 6, sparge with 2 and see where that puts you. The other day I did a full volume biab with 10# of grain and 8 gallons of water. It was too much (measured at 30 minute mark) so I had to extend my boil by 30 min before adding my late additions. With 13.5# you might be right on or a bit over

It all depends on your boil off rate

 

[weirdboy]

Only heat to 2 degress above mash temp? You'd loose much more than that when adding grains wouldnt you? Mine usually ends up about 12 above mash temp depending on the grain bill.

You are using the numbers from Beersmith, and probably not full volume BIAB.

The formula for calculating strike water temperature is as follows:

Strike Water Temperature Tw = (.2/r)(T2 - T1) + T2

where:
r = The ratio of water to grain in quarts per pound.
T1 = The initial temperature (¡F) of the mash.
T2 = The target temperature (¡F) of the mash.
Tw = The actual temperature (¡F) of the infusion water.


So if you are doing full volume mash for this batch, the ratio is going to be about 2.35

Assuming T1 is around 70F, and you are targeting 156F, you get:

Tw = (0.2/2.35) * (156 - 70) + 156 = 163F

So, maybe not 2-3 degrees, but way under 12 degrees. In my experience with it, that calculation has been a bit on the high side, and Beersmith is always way too high for BIAB. I try to err on the side of caution, especially when the target mash temp is a bit higher, because conversion tends to happen faster the hotter you get. You can end up with a bunch of unfermentable sugars really fast if you're not careful.

On my last batch, I think I went about 3-4 degrees over and hit my target mash temp right on the nose.

 

[dooman333]

I'm equally confused. If I do a 5 gal batch biab and I typical mash with 5.5 gal and sparge/rinse with 2 gal, where do these values go in BS2 and what profile should I choose?

 

[Grumpybumpy]

You are using the numbers from Beersmith, and probably not full volume BIAB.

The formula for calculating strike water temperature is as follows:

Strike Water Temperature Tw = (.2/r)(T2 - T1) + T2

where:
r = The ratio of water to grain in quarts per pound.
T1 = The initial temperature (¡F) of the mash.
T2 = The target temperature (¡F) of the mash.
Tw = The actual temperature (¡F) of the infusion water.

So if you are doing full volume mash for this batch, the ratio is going to be about 2.35

Assuming T1 is around 70F, and you are targeting 156F, you get:

Tw = (0.2/2.35) * (156 - 70) + 156 = 163F

So, maybe not 2-3 degrees, but way under 12 degrees. In my experience with it, that calculation has been a bit on the high side, and Beersmith is always way too high for BIAB. I try to err on the side of caution, especially when the target mash temp is a bit higher, because conversion tends to happen faster the hotter you get. You can end up with a bunch of unfermentable sugars really fast if you're not careful.

On my last batch, I think I went about 3-4 degrees over and hit my target mash temp right on the nose.

Cool stuff! I normally undershoot my strike when mashing with a sparge given what most calculators give me. So I went up 5 degrees for my first true biab. Guess what, I ended up 5 high.

Guess what I'm saying is maybe you should trust the software, but others obviously have more experience than I do.

 

[weirdboy]

I can't figure it out, and even if I could it is clearly broken the way it's in there now.

I put my ingredients and whatnot in there, but for the mash volume and temp stuff I roll my own.

 

[cotillion]

So is the GB Rackers calculator any more trustworthy for temps? I feel like the volumes from my BS recipe aren't too far off, considering I manually added the .75 for my faucet/cookie rack.

 

[deepcdan99]

You are using the numbers from Beersmith, and probably not full volume BIAB.

The formula for calculating strike water temperature is as follows:

Strike Water Temperature Tw = (.2/r)(T2 - T1) + T2

where:
r = The ratio of water to grain in quarts per pound.
T1 = The initial temperature (¡F) of the mash.
T2 = The target temperature (¡F) of the mash.
Tw = The actual temperature (¡F) of the infusion water.


So if you are doing full volume mash for this batch, the ratio is going to be about 2.35

Assuming T1 is around 70F, and you are targeting 156F, you get:

Tw = (0.2/2.35) * (156 - 70) + 156 = 163F

So, maybe not 2-3 degrees, but way under 12 degrees. In my experience with it, that calculation has been a bit on the high side, and Beersmith is always way too high for BIAB. I try to err on the side of caution, especially when the target mash temp is a bit higher, because conversion tends to happen faster the hotter you get. You can end up with a bunch of unfermentable sugars really fast if you're not careful.

On my last batch, I think I went about 3-4 degrees over and hit my target mash temp right on the nose.

Sorry I was thinking the loss of temp going into my mash tun, BIAB would be less,