Someone please explain this...

[Soulshine2]

Northern brewers is now marketing this thing that oxygen is good for beer. I just got this email from them . Kinda blows the whole LODO thing and Im all confused about it once again.
https://www.northernbrewer.com/coll...sLmNvbSIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkhiZFY0bSJ9

 

[kh54s10]

It is when oxygen is introduced into the process. Yeast need oxygen to reproduce and to start a healthy fermentation. So even LODO will oxygenate a starter and oxygenate the wort when adding the yeast.

LODO eliminates as much oxygen as possible before fermentation and especially after fermentation has begun.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Oxygen is good when introduced at the proper steps in the brew process (i.e. at start of fermentation after yeast has been added). LODO clearly states this. Outside of this timeframe, oxygen in the brew process will change the flavor of the beer.

 

[applescrap]

Northern brewers is now marketing this thing that oxygen is good for beer. I just got this email from them . Kinda blows the whole LODO thing and Im all confused about it once again.
https://www.northernbrewer.com/coll...sLmNvbSIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkhiZFY0bSJ9

If i am correct that oxygen kit is for pre fermentation. Oxygen is seen as vital for yeast during fermentation Or at least in the early stages. I am not sure of the science around that and I'm sure someone else can help here, But I do know that people who are very invested in their brewing use oxygen before fermentation. And if I am correct low oxygen brewers do as well. Which is kind of weird considering one would go to so much trouble to keep oxygen out on the hot side and then oxygen added before fermentation. When it comes to the Cold side oxygen is without a doubt a staling factor and something to keep in to consideration depending on brew style as well. While worrying about oxygen on the cold side is a worthwhile endeavor because of thinking like this it makes me wonder about hot side. I think there are differing opinions about hot side oxygen but there is no doubt about cold side And that is coming from someone who does not do in the cold side low brewing techniques.

 

[Robert65]

The only time oxygen is beneficial is immediately after pitching so yeast have necessary resources for sterol synthesis and cell wall construction during the growth phase. Even this need can be negated. Dry yeast has all the reserves it needs, having been grown in an oxygen rich environment. And experiments are ongoing at the professional level to find other means of supplying aids to sterol synthesis, such as certain lipids (which, however, prove to have their own detrimental effects.) At any other stage, oxygen is very harmful to wort and beer. It should be excluded, as far as possible, hot side and cold side. Commercially, pure O2 is sometimes not used because, when injected inline with yeast slurry during transfer to the fermenter, it is slow to dissolve, and contact with high concentrations of O2 can kill yeast; so air may be used. But at the homebrew level, using a stone in the fermenter, pure O2 may indeed give better results. A sufficient concentration of dissolved O2 can be reached with 30-60 seconds of O2 at a flow rate low enough that bubbles do not break the surface. This is good because you don't create a lot of foam, and foam proteins only get to form once. If you have foam in the kettle, transfers, aeration, and fermentation, that's all foam that won't be on top of your glass.

 

[Soulshine2]

It is when oxygen is introduced into the process. Yeast need oxygen to reproduce and to start a healthy fermentation. So even LODO will oxygenate a starter and oxygenate the wort when adding the yeast.

LODO eliminates as much oxygen as possible before fermentation and especially after fermentation has begun.

see, this is why I guess I dont understand the specific LODO thing since it is pretty much common sense that you dont want to introduce oxygen once fermentation begins. I usually have an everyman situation of an every day act to compare to but right now it escapes me.
Thank you.

 

[Soulshine2]

If i am correct that oxygen kit is for pre fermentation. Oxygen is seen as vital for yeast during fermentation Or at least in the early stages. I am not sure of the science around that and I'm sure someone else can help here, But I do know that people who are very invested in their brewing use oxygen before fermentation. And if I am correct low oxygen brewers do as well. Which is kind of weird considering one would go to so much trouble to keep oxygen out on the hot side and then oxygen added before fermentation. When it comes to the Cold side oxygen is without a doubt a staling factor and something to keep in to consideration depending on brew style as well. While worrying about oxygen on the cold side is a worthwhile endeavor because of thinking like this it makes me wonder about hot side. I think there are differing opinions about hot side oxygen but there is no doubt about cold side And that is coming from someone who does not do in the cold side low brewing techniques.

" And if I am correct low oxygen brewers do as well. Which is kind of weird considering one would go to so much trouble to keep oxygen out on the hot side and then oxygen added before fermentation."
This is what Ive been saying all along. seems almost counterproductive

 

[bracconiere]

the picture shows it in a Erlenmeyer flask....so i'd assume it's for starters? (as stated already, just thought i'd point out the pic )

edit: from what i've read here on HBT, co2 is bad for starters, o2 is good, thus the stiring...

 

[Soulshine2]

The only time oxygen is beneficial is immediately after pitching so yeast have necessary resources for sterol synthesis and cell wall construction during the growth phase. Even this need can be negated. Dry yeast has all the reserves it needs, having been grown in an oxygen rich environment. And experiments are ongoing at the professional level to find other means of supplying aids to sterol synthesis, such as certain lipids (which, however, prove to have their own detrimental effects.) At any other stage, oxygen is very harmful to wort and beer. It should be excluded, as far as possible, hot side and cold side. Commercially, pure O2 is sometimes not used because, when injected inline with yeast slurry during transfer to the fermenter, it is slow to dissolve, and contact with high concentrations of O2 can kill yeast; so air may be used. But at the homebrew level, using a stone in the fermenter, pure O2 may indeed give better results. A sufficient concentration of dissolved O2 can be reached with 30-60 seconds of O2 at a flow rate low enough that bubbles do not break the surface. This is good because you don't create a lot of foam, and foam proteins only get to form once. If you have foam in the kettle, transfers, aeration, and fermentation, that's all foam that won't be on top of your glass.

This...I was always under the thought that AERATION should be done just before pitching yeast . I dont know where the act of aeration became read as oxygenation because it is most certainly not one in the same. Although there may be instances where pure oxygen is used or necessary but I really dont see the need in "normal home brewing situations".
Just to clarify. I do not and have not ever gone to an extreme measure or gone out of my way to eliminate oxygen but I have made sure my method has not in fact added any undue oxygen or aeration to the wort before it is time to do so, which is just after cooling and prior to pitching. I hope that made sense.

 

[kh54s10]

This...I was always under the thought that AERATION should be done just before pitching yeast . I dont know where the act of aeration became read as oxygenation because it is most certainly not one in the same. Although there may be instances where pure oxygen is used or necessary but I really dont see the need in "normal home brewing situations".
Just to clarify. I do not and have not ever gone to an extreme measure or gone out of my way to eliminate oxygen but I have made sure my method has not in fact added any undue oxygen or aeration to the wort before it is time to do so, which is just after cooling and prior to pitching. I hope that made sense.

You are right the terms aeration and oxygenation are different. But in this application the purposes are the same. The aim is to get oxygen to the yeast. With pure o2 you can get a higher saturation. At least more easily. 30 seconds with oxygen and a stone. 30 minutes with an air pump. And probably never using the shake the fermenter method.

I do believe that limiting oxygen on the cold side is probably beneficial. I am certain that it is necessary after fermentation.

I don't do much in the way of limiting o2 on the cold side as I don't believe any harm to be too significant. I only take easy steps in limiting o2 after fermentation. I haven't had a problem with oxidation, and haven't acquired the equipment to do closed transfers. I do believe that it would make my already very good beers better, it is the question of hassle to reward that I haven't decided.

 

[Soulshine2]

You are right the terms aeration and oxygenation are different. But in this application the purposes are the same. The aim is to get oxygen to the yeast. With pure o2 you can get a higher saturation. At least more easily. 30 seconds with oxygen and a stone. 30 minutes with an air pump. And probably never using the shake the fermenter method.

I do believe that limiting oxygen on the cold side is probably beneficial. I am certain that it is necessary after fermentation.

I don't do much in the way of limiting o2 on the cold side as I don't believe any harm to be too significant. I only take easy steps in limiting o2 after fermentation. I haven't had a problem with oxidation, and haven't acquired the equipment to do closed transfers. I do believe that it would make my already very good beers better, it is the question of hassle to reward that I haven't decided.

I get that for sure. I'm not saying whatever one does in their home brewing is beneficial or not.
I'd like to see a 4 way side by side done with a blind impartial tasting panel .
Control , LODO, aerate(shake) and oxygenate(stone or what have you) .

 

[bracconiere]

I'd like to see a 4 way side by side done with a blind impartial tasting panel .
Control , LODO, aerate(shake) and oxygenate(stone or what have you) .

and let the viral youtube video, and laughter ensue! (i'd like to see it too!)

 

[Robert65]

Reactions happen much more quickly as temperature increases. So, while ideally you aerate/oxygenate only after pitching, and the yeast scavenge all the oxygen for their use before it has time to oxidize the wort, since oxidation reactions proceed more slowly at this temperature aerating immediately before pitching is relatively harmless as the yeast will still jump in to the rescue. Note that you may also be confusing oxygenation with oxidation. At the temperatures on the hot side, any exposure to air/oxygen will oxidize wort rapidly. The staling reactions you hope to delay with careful cold side practices, such as oxidation of lipids to aldehydes, will largely have already gone to completion in the mash without measures to prevent oxygen exposure. Low oxygen brewing seeks to eliminate all oxygen exposure except at that one juncture where it is needed for yeast growth, and at that point the yeast itself keeps oxygen from getting at the wort.

 

[NGD]

Not sure what the fuss is about.

I can’t remember where I read this, but there are several lengthy discussions on how many PPM of O2 you can dissolve into wort via shaking X number of minutes vs using pure O2 at a certain flow rate for X number of minutes. The outcome is you are able to dissolve slightly more O2 using the air stone than shaking.

With that said, I have and use this kit because shaking 5 gallons of beer is a PITA, and using a paddle mixer I would absolutely fling wort everywhere. The airstone is easy, quick and improved my beer. Most notable on beers above 8%abv.

I agree a blind taste test would be very interesting to see the outcome. Also if there is any improvement in shelf life using LODO.