Second Runnings

[Culln5]

Second runnings beer has been on my mind lately so I have put a plan of attack together..... My first "attack" at this.....Lol

I found a pretty solid Imperial Stout recipe on HBT to brew (2-row, black barley, rye, special b, 2 chocolate malts, caramunich, warrior & Willamette hops, OG 1.119, 10.6%, 101.2 IBU).

I plan to do a full volume mash/boil and then a 30 minute full volume "batch sparge" for my second runnings "2nd Best Brown Ale" (made with onhand leftover hops: Amarillo Gold, tettnang, Willamette, and nugget 26.2 IBU).

I have created the recipes at 70% to leave some room for improvement. I hit 75% consistently with a mash and batch sparge.

Do you think this is a solid plan of attack? Is it reasonable to think the second runnings will be close to, if not over, an OG of 1.040? Am I missing anything for this process?

 

[TastyAdventure]

You are talking about a partigyle and partigyles are great ideas when you're already planning a high OG beer. I could help you estimate your OG for the small beer but I need more info. How many pounds of grain? How many gallons for the Imperial Stout? Do you batch sparge or fly?

 

[Culln5]

Both will be 5.25 gallon batches. I don't plan to sparge the first brew but will batch sparge the second runnings with 9.81 gallons to achieve a preboil of 8 gallons.

 

[Culln5]

Grain bill

View attachment 1437059164829.jpg

 

[TexasWine]

Do you batch sparge or fly?

He's doing BIAB...

 

[Culln5]

He's doing BIAB...

Yes sir I am..... However, I usually mash with 2qts/lb and batch sparge with the remaining volume but for this brew I will do a full volume mash for the first and then a full volume batch sparge that will become the second brew.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Both will be 5.25 gallon batches. I don't plan to sparge the first brew but will batch sparge the second runnings with 9.81 gallons to achieve a preboil of 8 gallons.

Maybe I am misunderstanding but you do not have absorption loses on the small beer as the grain is fully saturated.

I really am at a loss as to how this gets done BIAB now that I think of it. I have done it with my three-tier before and you just doughed in as a normal and I fly-sparge to a volume for the big beer. At that point I batch sparged the rest of my hot water into a separate pot. In my case it was a 5 gallons (pre-boil) of Scottish Strong Ale and much smaller schilling but I think I collected just shy of 6 gallons (pre-boil) of 1.035 wort.

 

[TastyAdventure]

According to you efficiency, with 24.5 lbs of grain, your first Runnings, post boil, 5 gallons, should be 1.089, and your second runnings (do not account for grain absorption when adding sparge water) will be 1.045.
If you want a higher OG on your first runnings without adding more grain, do a smaller volume of your first runnings. Check this chart out:
Ignore the red circle
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1437073099.731763.jpg

 

[Culln5]

According to you efficiency, with 24.5 lbs of grain, your first Runnings, post boil, 5 gallons, should be 1.089, and your second runnings (do not account for grain absorption when adding sparge water) will be 1.045.
If you want a higher OG on your first runnings without adding more grain, do a smaller volume of your first runnings. Check this chart out:
Ignore the red circle
View attachment 290493

OK. I totally looked over the fact that the grains would be saturated. So, I assume I will just do an 8 gallon batch sparge for the second (that would be my targeted pre-boil volume)?

Beersmith predicts 1.119 @ 70% efficiency. If I'm reading the chart right, the second would be 1.051'ish.

 

[TastyAdventure]

What is your mash water/grist ratio?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I have a feeling that you are calculating for 70% efficiency on your first running, but that you will be more likely to get 50% on your first running and then 20% additional from the second runnings plus pour over sparge.

Even if I am incorrect, be prepared to boost the gravity with DME, or sugar or honey if it comes out lower than expected. It is a bummer when your hop schedule is set for one beer and then the beer comes out weak and therefor bitter.

I did have success doing a partigyle with a much smaller beer than you are planning. My first runnings came out to 1.050, and the second runnings were at 1.020, which I then doubled to 1.040 with some caramelized honey. The resulting braggot was exactly what I was going for in a quick fermenting lawnmower braggot. Some of my friends that aren't much into beer enjoyed it also though it did have some "bite" to it.
pic of lawnmower braggot

 

[wilserbrewer]

I've never tried a partigyle BIAB, but I would guess an approach would be to collect 1st and second runnings, then blend to adjust to desired gravities.
Unless you have some experience, it will be a little guesswork to predict exactly where you may fall.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I have a feeling that you are calculating for 70% efficiency on your first running, but that you will be more likely to get 50% on your first running and then 20% additional from the second runnings plus pour over sparge.

exactly

 

[TastyAdventure]

I should've dropped this in here on my first post, please indulge me and read it all, I think it will be helpful to you https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6859254

 

[TastyAdventure]

Also, you should know that on a beer as large as 1.113, you will get less efficiency than a lower OG beer. This is because you are not (or just barely) sparging, and sparging helps with efficiency by pulling out sugars left behind from the initial mash first runnings

 

[Culln5]

What is your mash water/grist ratio?

For this brew it is 1.702 qts/lb, typically 2qts/lb though.

 

[Culln5]

I have a feeling that you are calculating for 70% efficiency on your first running, but that you will be more likely to get 50% on your first running and then 20% additional from the second runnings plus pour over sparge.

[/URL]

I'm not following why the first efficiency would be 50% if I consistently hit 75+%?

 

[TastyAdventure]

Are you sparging normally to get to 75%?

 

[Culln5]

Are you sparging normally to get to 75%?

Yes, but I can be at 70'ish% without it.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Can you get OG 1.119, no sparge and 70%?

Efficiency will typically be lower as gravity increases.

 

[ArcLight]

Can you get OG 1.119, no sparge and 70%?

Efficiency will typically be lower as gravity increases.

Try dunk sparging and squeezing


In all seriousness, when I BIAB I hold back around 35% of the water, and do a dunk sparge. Doing that greatly helps capture the excess sugar in a big beer, though I've never tried anything above 1.075

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I guess it counts down to your efficiency. If you can hit 80% and your first running is 70%, that only leaves 10% for the second running. If 70% is 1.120 then the second running would be 1.017 (1+(.12/7)). Go for it, double the OG w honey and go very easy on the lupalus (15ibu).