Sample tasted great, 4 weeks later not so much

[Scriv]

Question: I bottled an extract kit, Brewers Best Double IPA. On bottling day the sample tasted hoppy and fresh with great aroma, but then at 2 weeks in the bottle it was flat. 3 weeks in it was lightly carbed but no hop aroma. Now 4 weeks in its drinkable but not hoppy at all, with zero aroma.

How do I keep the same flavor/aroma as bottling day?

 

[Sailingeric]

Hop aroma will fade in time.

 

[Scriv]

So there's no way to keep hop aroma? How do the pros do it then?

 

[brewmeister13]

Reduction of oxidation is huge with hoppy beers. Try to minimize the contact with oxygen while transferring. People go through different lengths to achieve this. Personally I pressurize transfer my beer to a keg that has been flushed with CO2. I also never rack to secondary. I just dry hop in the primary to minimize oxygen pickup.

Another thing to watch is storage and handling. Temperature fluctuation and vibration can kill a beer. I had a beer in competition go from a 46 and nearly take BOS (the national level judge, highest level at our competition, thought it was the best beer) to a mere 32 just 2 weeks later after being left out warm (thanks LHBS) and traveling 100 miles to a comparable competition.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

Short answer: keg the beer.

Bottling IPAs is essentially kicking yourself in the nuts as you cross the finish line.

That is my not-so-humble opinion, generated from lots of experience.

 

[Scriv]

Well that just sucks. I'm still curious how the pros pull it off then, lots of bottled IPAs with big aroma.

 

[Brew_G]

Well that just sucks. I'm still curious how the pros pull it off then, lots of bottled IPAs with big aroma.

Might be the case for people who have poor bottling processes.

 

[brewmeister13]

Well that just sucks. I'm still curious how the pros pull it off then, lots of bottled IPAs with big aroma.

Theirs goes from a boil kettle to the fermentation tanks. After that it never sees oxygen again. A little is picked up in the bottling process, but, at least the one I've seen operate, levels are monitored and precautions taken to minimize O2 pickup.

 

[Scriv]

So basically, as a home brewer who doesn't keg, and likely won't for awhile, I won't be getting any good hop aroma?

I dry hop in primary, never rack to a secondary. I understand about exposure to oxygen, but it's an inevitability when racking to the bottling bucket.

 

[brewmeister13]

What was your recipe? Before I started to keg my beers usually lasted about a month, after carbonating for 2-3 weeks, before falling off a cliff. I had one take 2nd place BOS, that was vastly different 2 weeks after the judging and on life support after 4.

Even doing everything right, kegging, flushing everything with CO2 and anything else the pros do, IPA's really have a short shelf life for optimal flavor. The first two hearted I had was 4 month after bottling and it was horrible. I couldn't understand what people like so much about it. Then I had it a few weeks old on tap. I knew then what it was. It was like drinking two different beers.

 

[Scriv]

It was a Brewers Best double IPA extract kit that I added a 2oz dry hop of Citra to. I thought for sure it'd turn out better than it did. I've since moved on to all grain and am hoping my beers get better in the future, I'm still fairly new to this.

 

[slym2none]

I swear, if I could get my hands on a small chunk of dry ice, I'd try flushing my bottles out with small pieces if it before filling them.

Hmm...

 

[brewmeister13]

It was a Brewers Best double IPA extract kit that I added a 2oz dry hop of Citra to. I thought for sure it'd turn out better than it did. I've since moved on to all grain and am hoping my beers get better in the future, I'm still fairly new to this.

Just looking at the recipe, without knowing the timing of addition, it looks like it's short on hops, even with the added 2 oz of dry hop. Extract vs. all grain shouldn't matter with an IPA. We just had a club competition where my 2 entries were an all grain Trios(yeast type) IPA. It was a 5 gallon batch and it had a little over 13 oz of hops total and took 3rd. My other beer was an extract version of Hop-Fu IPA. It was a 3 gallon batch and had a total of 7.25 oz of hops and took 1st in the people's choice round. I'd say just up the late additions and and use 3-4 oz dry hops will get you over the top hop presence.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

So basically, as a home brewer who doesn't keg, and likely won't for awhile, I won't be getting any good hop aroma?

I dry hop in primary, never rack to a secondary. I understand about exposure to oxygen, but it's an inevitability when racking to the bottling bucket.

Basically yes. I emboldened the big issue here. Syphoning your beer into a huge open bucket, where it bathes in oxygen, letting it sit there as you fill bottles that are full of oxygen, using a spigot on that likely harbors bacteria and allows the beer to splash everywhere as the bottles are filled, maximizing the exposure to that oxygen....

My point is that the average homebrewer's bottling process is just not good enough when big hop character is the goal. Add the fact that it takes three weeks to properly carbonate. It's a losing battle.

Pros do not 'bottle' IPA the way you might have thought. They ferment and carbonate in bright tanks and the beer is packaged straight from there.

It is possible to devise a bottling technique that would protect your beer from oxygen. However, it would likely be far more impractical and expensive for you than a minimal kegging setup.

I see you are relatively new to this. I only lay it on you on hard because I WISH someone had done the same for me when I started.

Keep in mind bottle conditioning is perfectly acceptable for most beer styles, just not really the heavily dry hopped varieties.

All the best to you

 

[zippy84]

using a spigot on that likely harbors bacteria and allows the beer to splash everywhere as the bottles are filled

Not sure if scaremongering?

Surely nobody bottles directly from the spigot? Bottle wand costs just a few dollars. I doubt spigots 'likely harbour bacteria', unless pretty bad sterilising has been practiced!? If I'm wrong maybe I can be corrected but I've never had an issue. They're not that hard to keep clean. I sterilise then wrap in clingfilm before fermenting, to ensure it stays sterile... then before bottling I'll usually turn it upside down and rinse with a sterilising solution.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

Not sure if scaremongering?

Surely nobody bottles directly from the spigot? Bottle wand costs just a few dollars. I doubt spigots 'likely harbour bacteria', unless pretty bad sterilising has been practiced!? If I'm wrong maybe I can be corrected but I've never had an issue. They're not that hard to keep clean. I sterilise then wrap in clingfilm before fermenting, to ensure it stays sterile... then before bottling I'll usually turn it upside down and rinse with a sterilising solution.

Came off a little scaremongering. I think lots of people bottle from the spigot though. Wasn't trying to exaggerate there. Also, around any gaskets or seals, or in general anything that's plastic and can be scratched, is it at risk of infection. I think many would be with me on that point

 

[m00ps]

Well that just sucks. I'm still curious how the pros pull it off then, lots of bottled IPAs with big aroma.

You need to get some kind of contraption like a beer gun. I started kegging and immediately my IPAs started tasting amazing. Cause you purge the keg to minimize oxygen exposure and you can do an other dry hop in the keg. I bought a beer gun because it mimicks commercial bottling processes where they purge the bottle with CO2 before filling from the bottom up. I've only done a few bottles with it so far, but I have high hopes that my bottled IPAs will last for competitions this fall. Unless I brew a better one before then...

 

[zippy84]

Came off a little scaremongering. I think lots of people bottle from the spigot though. Wasn't trying to exaggerate there. Also, around any gaskets or seals, or in general anything that's plastic and can be scratched, is it at risk of infection. I think many would be with me on that point

I'm with you on that point myself! Which is why anyone fermenting with plastic.. such as a plastic fermenting bucket, plastic mixing spoon, hose, spigot etc. knows not to go near it with anything abrasive that would cause scratching. So it's not the spigot that 'likely harbours bacteria', it would be the bad sanitising practice that would cause bacteria/infection. Otherwise, spigots are perfectly fine, once cleaned properly.

 

[brick_haus]

Princeofpoint makes excellent points (maybe thats why he's the prince?). Nothing wrong with strongly recommending what most of us have learned the hard way in order to get a beginning brewer through the learning phase a little less frustrated.
I also use a beer gun, but I bottle from a keg. MORE HOPS might help?

No plastic or spigots in my system either.

 

[Scriv]

Valid points, I do use a bottling wand, but I see what you're saying. I'll have to try more hops until I can get the P.O. from the wife for kegging equipment.

Thanks all.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

Valid points, I do use a bottling wand, but I see what you're saying. I'll have to try more hops until I can get the P.O. from the wife for kegging equipment.

Thanks all.

This is a good place to start for sure. I think you mentioned 2 oz of Citra dry hops for the batch; that's definitely something, but I'd go at least 3 for an American pale, push it to 4-6 for an IPA, and push it even higher for an imperial version.

I totally hear you about kegging equipment seeming like a pain and an expense at first. I'm not married, and live alone, which makes crafting fine ales much much easier. I would bet that your main process is excellent, as evidenced from the fact that your gravity sample tasted delicious. Imagine a carbonated version of that that explodes all over your tongue; that's what inspires me!

Kegging is definitely a "step" you have to take because it requires you to have some dedicated refrigerated space that accommodates the dimensions of a five gallon corny keg. A chest freezer (70 bucks used max?) with an STC-1000-based temperature controller (30-40 max?) is the simplest way to go. A corny keg with 5 lbs CO2 tank (100 bucks max?) plus some keg post fittings, hose, and picnic tap (40 max?) and you are set. Plus the space to leave all that crap of course. But let me tell you... the feeling of pouring yourself snifter after snifter of world class hop-explosive homebrew never gets old!

Cheers to your brother

 

[zippy84]

I agree with the points made! I just would not like other beginners to think that plastic is likely to harbour bacteria because that's simply not true. Is it more likely than glass? yes. Fair enough you don't use plastic in your system and yes you are less likely to get infection. That doesn't mean experienced brewers don't use plastic because a lot do, without any trouble. Just out of curiosity, how do you rack without plastic, I genuinely don't know?

I've used the same plastic setup with the same plastic fermenter and spigot for about 4 or 5 years, lying dormant about 2 yrs in between, in use the rest of the time.. not a single infection yet.

 

[headspace]

I got frustrated by lack of hop aroma in my bottled beer and solved it by eliminating oxygen -- it wasn't that hard:

At the time I wasn't kegging but I got my hands on a CO2 tank and using a "standard carboy cap" (google it) I purged oxygen from the target container before moving and then pushed from fermenter-carboy to bottling carboy with CO2.

At that point I measured what I had, and did my best to add sugar solution and stir through a small opening while keeping O2 OUT and then purging w/ more CO2.

Since I had the tank, I made a $20 beer gun (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=479063) that allowed me to purge bottles and w/ some practice bottle nearly oxygen free by pushing beer from the carboy to bottle w/ CO2.

This alone took me from beers like the O.P. described to beers in 2 month+ old bottles that still reeked just like the dry-hopped fermenter when I opened them.

Beware -- you'll get addicted to pushing beer around w/ CO2 and eventually buy kegs. But even if you don't, you'll never regret buying a CO2 setup once you taste that hop flavor.

 

[m00ps]

yeah any type of CO2 system is worth the investment IMO, even without kegging. I remember before I started kegging anything remotely hoppy I made, my IPAs wouldnt last long. I made an awesome unique tasting melon/berry IPA with Huell Melon, Hallertau Blanc, and Mosaic hops that was unlike anything I'd ever drank. No citrus or pine whatsoever. 2 months later, it basically tasted like a slightly fruity, musty 7% abv pale ale

 

[Scriv]

So help me understand the upgrade path. A kegerator or keezer isn't an option at this point. Would I see a benefit in buying a corny keg and CO2 system along with a counter pressure filling system? Then I could go from fermenter into keg, force carbonate, then bottle into purged bottles.
Would this help in retaining hop aroma and flavor?

 

[whoaru99]

Why is it you want to bottle it if you get a keg setup?

 

[Scriv]

Why is it you want to bottle it if you get a keg setup?

I don't have room to refrigerate a keg. Also it takes me awhile to go through 5 gallons.

 

[PrinceOfThePoint]

So help me understand the upgrade path. A kegerator or keezer isn't an option at this point. Would I see a benefit in buying a corny keg and CO2 system along with a counter pressure filling system? Then I could go from fermenter into keg, force carbonate, then bottle into purged bottles.
Would this help in retaining hop aroma and flavor?

You will require higher pressure / longer times to carbonate at room temperature, but the scariest thing to me is the probable hell of filling bottles with carbonated beer at room temperature. Foam City

 

[Scriv]

Guess I'll be brewing styles that aren't hop forward then. I'll buy commercial IPAs and brew stouts I guess.