Saison - Too Dry & Solvent?

[jasonanosaj]

Hello all-

First time brewer here. Decided to dive in deep and go with an all-grain Saison using Northern Brewer's kit. Started on 06/08. Recipe called for a saach rest @ 149 F for 60 minutes but we had a hard time keeping the mash at the correct temp (fluctuated a little between 140 F and 160 F). Recipe wanted 1.056 as OG and we hit 1.049. We used a grain bag and mashed in nearly 8 gallons of spring water. We pitched Wyeast 3724 at 80 F. A bucket was used for our primary and placed in the basement which stays around a cool 70 F.

We saw very little if any airlock activity, which I know isn't a true indicator of fermentation. But being our first time combined with not being able to see anything inside the bucket, I decided to transfer from bucket to carboy after one week (on 06/15). SG at this point was 1.030. I took the SG before racking so I decided to siphon in a good bit of yeast at bottom of bucket, but not all.

Still seeing very slow activity inside carboy I did more research and found 3724 really likes much warmer than 70 F so I moved outside and put under a loose blanket for shade. Fermentation immediately picked up but no krausen. On advice from a local brewshop I pitched half a package of Belle Saison dry yeast on 06/21 and fermentation activity seemed to increase a tiny bit.

On 06/24 the SG was 1.020 and we were gearing up for vacation. I left the carboy in a closet in my house and set the AC at 85 F. Upon returning, the SG was 1.006 on 07/08 and smelled like a really nice Saison; we were excited. We put the beer from collection tube into freezer and tasted after a while. Wow, it was really dry and my girlfriend commented on a kind of solvent taste. I can taste it a little, but just tasted really, really dry to me.

I know a saison is traditionally dry, but I've never tasted a saison this dry (without knowing the SG of most I've tried) and certainly not one with a solvent-like off flavor. I've read that high heat during fermentation can cause this flavor, but I also know that this yeast likes the higher heat. My fermometer only goes to 76 F I think, and I was obviously trying to hit higher than that, but I don't have a measurement of what it actually got to. I know at no point did the carboy feel more than "barely warm" to the touch.

So...the question is, is this something that conditioning will eventually take care of? What are my options?

Thanks!

 

[KepowOb]

Some people will be able to comment more on the solvent flavor, but u can come in on a couple of other things.

As far as it being dry, some strains will get a bit lower than you've reached, even with higher OGs. personally I like really dry saisons, it might come down to your personal taste??

Next time, don't transfer to another vessel mid-fermentation, as that's likely what stalled your fermentation. Pitching the other yeast gets obviously worked, but next time just be patient! If your really worried you can pop the top and see if there is a kraussen, but generally you just need to let the yeast do their thing.

 

[giraffe]

Is it dry as in not sweet, or dry as in astringent, in a mouth puckering way?
If it is astringent that could have been a problem with the mash.
1.049 to 1.006 is pretty much expected, and saisons are, in general, dry beers. The solvent may fade with some aging.

 

[jasonanosaj]

Some people will be able to comment more on the solvent flavor, but u can come in on a couple of other things.

As far as it being dry, some strains will get a bit lower than you've reached, even with higher OGs. personally I like really dry saisons, it might come down to your personal taste??

Next time, don't transfer to another vessel mid-fermentation, as that's likely what stalled your fermentation. Pitching the other yeast gets obviously worked, but next time just be patient! If your really worried you can pop the top and see if there is a kraussen, but generally you just need to let the yeast do their thing.

Yes, I agree not being patient was a problem here. I really wish I had a carboy big enough to be my primary. I just really needed to see what was going on my first time and not just trust. Lesson learned, perhaps.

Is it dry as in not sweet, or dry as in astringent, in a mouth puckering way?
If it is astringent that could have been a problem with the mash.
1.049 to 1.006 is pretty much expected, and saisons are, in general, dry beers. The solvent may fade with some aging.

I think it tastes not sweet with maybe a hint of solvent. It smells like...well, like a saison but with maybe a touch of honey. My girlfriend smells what I smell, but tastes more solvent than I do.

With my gravity at 1.006 and the airlock still very slowly bubbling, what is my next step? Keg it? Keep it going? Let's say it is a personal taste. Is there a good way to sweeten it and not just cause more fermentation?

Thanks everyone.

 

[insanim8er]

First you shouldn't pitch yeast at 80 degrees. It can lead to off flavor. With a saison, you do ferment at higher temps; however, you want to ferment lower during active fermentation then ramp up as it goes.

Second of all, being dry doesn't cause any kind of solvent flavors. I've had saisons and other beers drier than that with exceptional results. I've had ciders and other things like hard lemonade drier than that. None of them had solvent flavors.

Solvent flavors are know to be caused by too hot of a fermentation temp. So this could be the issue (even with a saison if it was too hot too fast) but you said you fermented at 70, so it may not be the issue... However, I bet it's part of it since pitching at 80 would result in quicker ferment and the temp don't really stabelize fast. Plus your ambient temp is always lower than fermentation temp.

I start my saison off at about 64ish...then 66 then 68... 70... 72.. Etc. Basically ramping it up daily.

The other cause of solvent like flavors could be oxidization (and at 80 degrees you're in the primary zone for the mythical "hot side aeration" meaning you could've caused the oxidization when you racked it... Or it happened when you racked to "secondary." But like mentioned above, you should never rack beer after a week--period. It can cause issues plus the yeast need time to clean up after itself (but I don't clean up is the issue). However racking could have caused oxidization too.

Don't rack your beer to a bright tank (secondary) unless needed. Most don't use "secondary" unless it's something like a fruit beer that needs to clear.

A saison is suppose to have yeast, let it sit 3-4weeks then bottle/keg.

 

[jasonanosaj]

First you shouldn't pitch yeast at 80 degrees. It can lead to off flavor. With a saison, you do ferment at higher temps; however, you want to ferment lower during active fermentation then ramp up as it goes.

Second of all, being dry doesn't cause any kind of solvent flavors. I've had saisons and other beers drier than that with exceptional results. I've had ciders and other things like hard lemonade drier than that. None of them had solvent flavors.

Solvent flavors are know to be caused by too hot of a fermentation temp. So this could be the issue (even with a saison if it was too hot too fast) but you said you fermented at 70, so it may not be the issue... However, I bet it's part of it since pitching at 80 would result in quicker ferment and the temp don't really stabelize fast. Plus your ambient temp is always lower than fermentation temp.

I start my saison off at about 64ish...then 66 then 68... 70... 72.. Etc. Basically ramping it up daily.

The other cause of solvent like flavors could be oxidization (and at 80 degrees you're in the primary zone for the mythical "hot side aeration" meaning you could've caused the oxidization when you racked it... Or it happened when you racked to "secondary." But like mentioned above, you should never rack beer after a week--period. It can cause issues plus the yeast need time to clean up after itself (but I don't clean up is the issue). However racking could have caused oxidization too.

Don't rack your beer to a bright tank (secondary) unless needed. Most don't use "secondary" unless it's something like a fruit beer that needs to clear.

A saison is suppose to have yeast, let it sit 3-4weeks then bottle/keg.

I was a little unclear at what temp to pitch the yeast. The recipe said the optimum temp was 70-85 F, and not knowing if that was pitching temp or fermentation temp, I waited until it got to 80 F and pitched.

As for the flavors, I think my palate isn't refined enough yet. It just tasted really dry to me. My favorite saison (Boulevard's Saison-Brett) probably isn't a fair comparison because it has brett in it and it isn't what I was trying to make. However, I believe its TG is 1.010 and it doesn't taste anywhere near as dry as mine does at 1.006. My girlfriend says she definitely tastes a solvent-like taste. Once she said it the power of suggestion make have overcome me, but I trust her palate more than mine.

As for racking when I did, I know now to be patient for a multitude of reasons. I will say, however, that I tasted it each time I took SG, excluding when I initially transferred to fermenter, and the taste at 1.006 is when she first tasted the solvent. Every other time it tasted like a really sweet saison. I'm just having a hard time determining what I'm tasting. I get that going from 1.020 to 1.006 is a big jump and that sweetness will and is supposed to go away. I wish I could better describe this taste.

As for sitting 3-4 weeks then keg, are you saying let it sit now for another 3-4 weeks? At what temp? I don't have any way to control temperature other than outside, garage, and basement.

Again, admittedly, a saison might have been too advanced for us to try first. Had we known the specifics about how this yeast behaves and ramping up the temps I might not even be posting this story.

Thanks again!

 

[flars]

Keep your carboy at room temp since you don't have temperature control. An even temperature would be better than a fluctuating temperature.

Take a look at Northern Brewers Petite Saison with WY3711. WY3711 optimum fermentation range tops out at 77°. Without temperature control you may be able to let the yeast ferment at room temperature without risk of exceeding the max temp.

 

[jasonanosaj]

Keep your carboy at room temp since you don't have temperature control. An even temperature would be better than a fluctuating temperature.

Take a look at Northern Brewers Petite Saison with WY3711. WY3711 optimum fermentation range tops out at 77°. Without temperature control you may be able to let the yeast ferment at room temperature without risk of exceeding the max temp.

Seeing that the SG is 1.006 now, how much longer should I leave in carboy before kegging?

 

[flars]

Since you may have an off flavor problem another week in the carboy may help with that. Give it another week before kegging.

 

[jasonanosaj]

Since you may have an off flavor problem another week in the carboy may help with that. Give it another week before kegging.

Thank you.

 

[masonsjax]

Boulevard Saison-Brett is very dry, I'd bet it finishes much lower than 1.010. I taste a ton of vinyl/bandaid funk in that beer. Personally I like regular Tank 7 much better.

+1 on ramping up the temps a little each day next time.

 

[insanim8er]

+1 on ramping up the temps a little each day next time.

I also recommend using 3711 next time too... I've had great results with it.

 

[jasonanosaj]

I also recommend using 3711 next time too... I've had great results with it.

Thanks for the info. It sounds like I could have screwed up much worse than I did and maybe something can still be salvaged from this.

 

[g-star]

Solvent/higher alcohols typically do not condition out with time. Once the heavier alcohols/acetone are present, they are not metabolized or broken down by a chemical process in any reasonable amount of time (years).

As others have noted, your problems are related to pitching too little yeast at much too high of a temperature. This is a well-established brewing phenomenon.

On your next attempt, make an appropriately sized starter, pitch in the 60's, and allow the beer to free rise. Its OK to get saisons into the upper 70's/low 80's, but not until peak activity has passed.

 

[jasonanosaj]

Thanks for all the help. Beer is kegged and in kegerator with a TG of 1.005. A certified cicerone told me it tastes "slick and buttery" and I tend to agree. It isn't infected and is...drinkable.

This was a good learning process for sure.

 

[serum]

I did exactly the same with my first few Belgian brews, there's only one way to learn!

Starting the temp low and then ramping it up is definitely the way to go. The yeast you've used is notorious for stalling too. 3711 is really easy to use.

If you don't have a brew fridge, I found a swamp cooler with ice packs in it and wrapping a t shirt over the fermenter worked well and got rid of all the solvent tastes even in the peak of summer over here. It's worth a try.

 

[ocluke]

Thanks for all the help. Beer is kegged and in kegerator with a TG of 1.005. A certified cicerone told me it tastes "slick and buttery" and I tend to agree. It isn't infected and is...drinkable.

This was a good learning process for sure.

Slick and buttery sounds like it could be diacetyl.