Saison Brewing & Terminology

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I've got a Brett saison that's about four months in primary. Tastes pretty good so far. I'm considering racking it over some lime zest, (maybe some juice) and hibiscus. Will the hibiscus add any flavor if not steeped (as in, added to the boil)? Any thoughts?
 
Beerontwowheels said:
I've got a Brett saison that's about four months in primary. Tastes pretty good so far. I'm considering racking it over some lime zest, juice and hibiscus. Will the hibiscus add any flavor if not steeped (as in, added to the boil)? Any thoughts?
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I'm also interested in this. A local brewery makes a hibiscus wit and it's pretty tasty.
 
Beerontwowheels said:
I've got a Brett saison that's about four months in primary. Tastes pretty good so far. I'm considering racking it over some lime zest, (maybe some juice) and hibiscus. Will the hibiscus add any flavor if not steeped (as in, added to the boil)? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Given that I've heard wildly-different amounts on what to use for hibiscus, one option might just be steeping the hibiscus in hot water at a pretty high ratio and then blend that in to taste.
 
I bought some hibiscus ages ago for a berliner and never got around to using it. Hibiscus (jamaica) tea is cold steeped, so I don't see why it wouldn't work in secondary. But as Thorpe429 said above, steeping either hot or cold, and then adding to taste would probably be a good option.
 
Beerontwowheels said:
I've got a Brett saison that's about four months in primary. Tastes pretty good so far. I'm considering racking it over some lime zest, (maybe some juice) and hibiscus. Will the hibiscus add any flavor if not steeped (as in, added to the boil)? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Artic Soiree was hibiscus and lime and had a decent hibiscus character. Great combo.
 
Beerontwowheels said:
I've got a Brett saison that's about four months in primary. Tastes pretty good so far. I'm considering racking it over some lime zest, (maybe some juice) and hibiscus. Will the hibiscus add any flavor if not steeped (as in, added to the boil)? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
was talking to Sean Hill back in September when Convivial Suarez came out (a hibiscus saison) and he said for that batch he switched from hot-side (end-of-boil) hibiscus addition to immediately before bottling - the hibiscus is much more prevalent when adding on the cold side.
 
ncaudle said:
was talking to Sean Hill back in September when Convivial Suarez came out (a hibiscus saison) and he said for that batch he switched from hot-side (end-of-boil) hibiscus addition to immediately before bottling - the hibiscus is much more prevalent when adding on the cold side.
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Thanks, Nic. That's my plan after doing some more reading. I remember listening to the Sour Hour program where Jay is talking about Tigerlilly and how they gradually added more and more hibiscus until they found the right flavor profile. I'll plan to do something similar with both the lime zest and dried hibiscus flowers. If it weren't snowing like crazy today, I'd be shopping for ingredients now.

Edit: and Convivial was obviously the inspiration for these additions. I know he used lemons, but I'm going to try lime instead.
 
Beerontwowheels said:
Thanks, Nic. That's my plan after doing some more reading. I remember listening to the Sour Hour program where Jay is talking about Tigerlilly and how they gradually added more and more hibiscus until they found the right flavor profile. I'll plan to do something similar with both the lime zest and dried hibiscus flowers. If it weren't snowing like crazy today, I'd be shopping for ingredients now.

Edit: and Convivial was obviously the inspiration for these additions. I know he used lemons, but I'm going to try lime instead.
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Let us know what you end up going with, as I would love to use some hibiscus soon!
 
axeman9182 said:
Just tasting my first saison with 3726. To quote the great Pam Poovey... Holy shitsnacks!
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My first saison with that yeast is in carboys right now. One with Brett L and one with Brett C. Inhvent tasted it since I pitched the Brett 6 weeks ago. Now you got me all excited.
 
abawol01 said:
My first saison with that yeast is in carboys right now. One with Brett L and one with Brett C. Inhvent tasted it since I pitched the Brett 6 weeks ago. Now you got me all excited.
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which Brett L, Wyeast or White Labs? they are veeeeeeery different strains despite the same name
 
ncaudle said:
I've only used the Wyeast version as all of the descriptions I've read of the White Labs version scare me with talks of smokiness
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White Labs C (645) is more tire / electrical fire than smokey. That's encouraging, right? ;)

Looking forwrad to the yeast release of brett c coming up.
 
Has anyone used ECY 3 the Farmhouse brett? Any taste descripters/what to expect? Im planning on doing most of my saisons with the Yeast bay Wallonian culture but grabbed the ECY 3, 14 and 8 to play around with as well. I've seen tasting notes on the 14 and 8 but not a whole lot on the 3.
 
Thorpe429 said:
Let us know what you end up going with, as I would love to use some hibiscus soon!
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Used three ounces of hibiscus. The dried flowers smell great, like a candied cranberry. Beer has already turned a wonderful pinkish hue. Skipped the lime altogether today (zested two limes though) but will reconsider in a week or two once the flowers add their character.
 
Has anyone used buckwheat in a saison, a la Le Sarrasin? I'd like to brew something in that realm (can age on wine soaked oak), but I've never used buckwheat before. Keep it raw and just mash with it?

I know Le Sarrasin uses 30% raw buckwheat. I figure the remainder of the grainbill would be comprised of mostly pilsner, but it's been a while since I've had the beer. Do you guys imagine there's more than just pils and buckwheat? Maybe some oats or other malts?

I've got a single bottle of Le Sarrasin left. Would you guys recommend just tossing the dregs in or trying to build the dregs up a bit before pitching along another strain (primary pitch plans are Yeast Bay Wallonian)?

Lots of questions! Help me brainstorm!
 
Beerontwowheels said:
Has anyone used buckwheat in a saison, a la Le Sarrasin? I'd like to brew something in that realm (can age on wine soaked oak), but I've never used buckwheat before. Keep it raw and just mash with it?

I know Le Sarrasin uses 30% raw buckwheat. I figure the remainder of the grainbill would be comprised of mostly pilsner, but it's been a while since I've had the beer. Do you guys imagine there's more than just pils and buckwheat? Maybe some oats or other malts?

I've got a single bottle of Le Sarrasin left. Would you guys recommend just tossing the dregs in or trying to build the dregs up a bit before pitching along another strain (primary pitch plans are Yeast Bay Wallonian)?

Lots of questions! Help me brainstorm!
Click to expand...

You should probably send it to me so I can offer a more educated opinion.
 
Beerontwowheels said:
Has anyone used buckwheat in a saison, a la Le Sarrasin? I'd like to brew something in that realm (can age on wine soaked oak), but I've never used buckwheat before. Keep it raw and just mash with it?

I know Le Sarrasin uses 30% raw buckwheat. I figure the remainder of the grainbill would be comprised of mostly pilsner, but it's been a while since I've had the beer. Do you guys imagine there's more than just pils and buckwheat? Maybe some oats or other malts?

I've got a single bottle of Le Sarrasin left. Would you guys recommend just tossing the dregs in or trying to build the dregs up a bit before pitching along another strain (primary pitch plans are Yeast Bay Wallonian)?

Lots of questions! Help me brainstorm!
Click to expand...

I haven't used it, but it's on my long to-do list for saisons. Plenty of experimentation coming up now that I can brew again. I would just do pilsner and buckwheat, as thinking back on it, Le Sarrasin isn't all that malt forward, though certainly had something outside of the pilsner, even underneath the wine and bugs. Maybe just a bit of Munich or Vienna, though I don't think those are necessary.

On yeast, I'd pitch the dregs if you're willing to pop the bottle. If that was bottled in the same way as HF with "outside" yeast, I'd rather just add that in with primary or secondary straight from the bottle so you don't have to worry about growing up too much bottling yeast.

YB Wallonian is always a great choice, though would see if you can find some 3726 to keep it within the Blaugies family, if possible.

Cheers!
 
Thorpe429 said:
I haven't used it, but it's on my long to-do list for saisons. Plenty of experimentation coming up now that I can brew again. I would just do pilsner and buckwheat, as thinking back on it, Le Sarrasin isn't all that malt forward, though certainly had something outside of the pilsner, even underneath the wine and bugs. Maybe just a bit of Munich or Vienna, though I don't think those are necessary.

On yeast, I'd pitch the dregs if you're willing to pop the bottle. If that was bottled in the same way as HF with "outside" yeast, I'd rather just add that in with primary or secondary straight from the bottle so you don't have to worry about growing up too much bottling yeast.

YB Wallonian is always a great choice, though would see if you can find some 3726 to keep it within the Blaugies family, if possible.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
Good point on staying with the blaugies strain. I'll check around. Just geeked about trying this Wallonian strain I got in the mail recently.
 
TNGabe said:
I've got a pack of 3726 from last release you can have if you want it.
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Do they continually release it? Best place to grab some? The only time I've seen it, was on their "private collection" like 2 years ago. I still see it online a few places, but I've been hesitant to pull the trigger on a 2 year old smack pack.
 
Five28 hz said:
Do they continually release it? Best place to grab some? The only time I've seen it, was on their "private collection" like 2 years ago. I still see it online a few places, but I've been hesitant to pull the trigger on a 2 year old smack pack.
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I believe it was part of the October-December platinum strain release last year. I told Wyeast on twitter they should make it year round and their response was that it'd be back this summer.
 
axeman9182 said:
I believe it was part of the October-December platinum strain release last year. I told Wyeast on twitter they should make it year round and their response was that it'd be back this summer.
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Rep at NHC told me it would go year round. In Philly. Two years ago. This is from Oct '14. Bought multiples, never used the last one. I have a bad habit of doing that.
 
Thorpe429 said:
I haven't used it, but it's on my long to-do list for saisons. Plenty of experimentation coming up now that I can brew again. I would just do pilsner and buckwheat, as thinking back on it, Le Sarrasin isn't all that malt forward, though certainly had something outside of the pilsner, even underneath the wine and bugs. Maybe just a bit of Munich or Vienna, though I don't think those are necessary.

On yeast, I'd pitch the dregs if you're willing to pop the bottle. If that was bottled in the same way as HF with "outside" yeast, I'd rather just add that in with primary or secondary straight from the bottle so you don't have to worry about growing up too much bottling yeast.

YB Wallonian is always a great choice, though would see if you can find some 3726 to keep it within the Blaugies family, if possible.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

I didn't list it, but I was originally thinking 30% buckwheat, 55% pils, 10% vienna and 5% crystal 40. Might do 30% buckwheat, 60% pils and 10% vienna and cut the crystal altogether. Agree on just using the dregs and will probably just use Wallonian if fresh Blaugies is not available (but I appreciate the offer TNGabe!).

I doubt I'll employ a step mash as working from a mash tun cooler makes doing that a complete pain in the ass (hoping to transition to a recirculating mash system capable of step infusions in the near future). Will organic raw buckwheat offer fermentables without first gelatinzing the buckwheat? A recipe from themadfermentationist shows he boiled his hulled buckwheat for 15 minutes before adding to the main mash. Wondering if that's something I need to do. Seems likely.

I also haven't seen an ABV for Le Sarrasin offered anywhere. Thinking somewhere between 6 & 7%?

11 gallons batch (to fermenters) -

17.5 lbs pils (59.3%)
9 lbs buckwheat (30.5%)(estimated OG assumes 35ppg on this)
3 lbs vienna (10.2%)

Probably a higher mash temp, around 157 or so, to leave some long chains for brett/lacto to chew on.

Still just spit-balling here, so point out any obvious flaws or lapses in judgement please. This is only my 4th saison, so not super comfy just yet.
 
Last edited:
Any suggestions on hops/IBU's? Thinking 30 ibus or less. Half interested in using something like Nelson Sauvin in attempt to pick up some of those Sauvignon Grapes notes that the original beer picks up from the barrel.
 
Beerontwowheels said:
I didn't list it, but I was originally thinking 30% buckwheat, 55% pils, 10% vienna and 5% crystal 40. Might do 30% buckwheat, 60% pils and 10% vienna and cut the crystal altogether. Agree on just using the dregs and will probably just use Wallonian if fresh Blaugies is not available (but I appreciate the offer TNGabe!).

I doubt I'll employ a step mash as working from a mash tun cooler makes doing that a complete pain in the ass (hoping to transition to a recirculating mash system capable of step infusions in the near future). Will organic raw buckwheat offer fermentables without first gelatinzing the buckwheat? A recipe from themadfermentationist shows he boiled his hulled buckwheat for 15 minutes before adding to the main mash. Wondering if that's something I need to do. Seems likely.

I also haven't seen an ABV for Le Sarrasin offered anywhere. Thinking somewhere between 6 & 7%?

11 gallons batch (to fermenters) -

17.5 lbs pils (59.3%)
9 lbs buckwheat (30.5%)(estimated OG assumes 35ppg on this)
3 lbs vienna (10.2%)

Probably a higher mash temp, around 157 or so, to leave some long chains for brett/lacto to chew on.

Still just spit-balling here, so point out any obvious flaws or lapses in judgement please. This is only my 4th saison, so not super comfy just yet.
Click to expand...

Agree that it's probably better to drop the C-40, I don't see that being helpful here. Shouldn't be any issue at all using the Wallonian instead of Blaugies, might be a little more fruity, but nothing wrong with that. On mash, don't think you need to go that high (I normally do more like 154), but I don't think it's going to hurt anything. I believe Vermontoise is the base for Sarrasin, and that's 6%, so yes, probably right around there.

I haven't used raw buckwheat, but I tend to agree that you'd probably need to prepare it.

Beerontwowheels said:
Any suggestions on hops/IBU's? Thinking 30 ibus or less. Half interested in using something like Nelson Sauvin in attempt to pick up some of those Sauvignon Grapes notes that the original beer picks up from the barrel.
Click to expand...

I think around 25 IBUs should be good, as you'll lose a bit during aging, and Vermontoise is a relatively-hoppy saison. I think Nelson would work quite well with this beer.
 
Why did this thread die out? Thinking of re-brewing my buckwheat saison soon. Have one bottle left of the original brew and will use that for dregs.
 

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