Rims or HERMS

[augiedoggy]

I brewed a Belgian Dubbel last night.. When I finished I ran warm water through my rims and plate chiller for about 20 seconds until I was out of water in my HLT... this is the state of my element directly after brewing with only that 20 second rinse. as you can see its completely clean with no film whatsoever. This is due to the very low watt density. this also eliminates the "shock treatment" Bobby was talking about... I average 86% efficiency on this system all day long so It must be doing something right... The Belgian Dubbel I brewed last night was from Jamil and John Palmers "brewing classic styles" and even though the recipe called for .5lbs of cane sugar on top of the belgian syrup I found I more than hit my numbers without adding it at all.(hopefully its not needed to dry the beer out but im already at the potential for 8.7% abv.)

 

[processhead]

you cant predict cavitation or bump issues, it just happens, I think a person should replace the impellers at least every 2 years if not every year, that solved my problem with pumps

My experience with RIMS pumps may be an exception, but impeller/ head wear has never been an issue.

I have close to 8 years on my March pump with the original head and impeller.

My experience has been that all pump operational problems could be traced back to improper pump placement, poor piping layout, or air leaks in pump suction piping.

Hard piping everything goes a long way to eliminate air leaks. Suction air leaks can be tough to track down, but all quick-connect fitting should be suspect as most seal best in positive pressure systems, which the suction side of the pump is not.

Keeping ALL suction side piping between the MLT and the pump inlet in a continuous downward gradient will practically eliminate air locking issues.

Keeping pump suction side piping runs as short, direct and vertical as possible, and of sufficient inside diameter is one of the best things you can do for your RIMS to ensure reliable operation.

 

[beernutz]

A properly set up rims should never scortch. If a pump stops flowing, the temp probe will cut power to the element.

What percentage of RIMS systems would you estimate are properly set up?

Most of the ones I see written about on HBT have no flow meters or pump monitors. A cursory search for RIMS SCORTCHED WORT on HBT found several anecdotal reports.

 

[augiedoggy]

What percentage of RIMS systems would you estimate are properly set up?

Most of the ones I see written about on HBT have no flow meters or pump monitors.

I believe what he meant was the temp probe should be very close to the end of the heating element... almost touching it... if this simple thing is done the rims will turn off almost immediately once flow stops. (because the temp probe is effectively doing its job) no fancy stuff needed... I added my flow switch because I forget to turn off my rims so it does it for me and the redundant safety doesnt hurt.

Your typical commonly sold out of the box rims setup usually doesnt allow this with a very powerful element which stops way short of filling the length of the tube.. Those rims kits are designed for the sellers sake by simply using 2 cheap offset tees used in dairy and pharmaceutical applications. (Well they were cheap before people stated using them for Rims). and the most common off the shelf parts. The repurposed randell that blichmann sells as a rims is no exception they work but they are hardly ideal.. more of a compromise to build cheap and sell. My rims cost me about $100-150 to build if I recall correctly

Many brewers use mismatched rims parts and use incorrect flow speeds thinking faster and bigger is always better which causes channeling and more often stuck MT drains..

What we really need is for a vendor to design and sell a rims kit that takes this into account.(are you listening Bobby since your usually the one developing and introducing better new equipment ).

Maybe provide a flowmeter (they are as little as $15 shipped) with flow recommendations... Its true everyones systems are a bit different as far as mash tuns and drainage but then you would see a lot less mistakes and scorching as a result... Just Because Herms is more "foolproof", doesnt necessarily make it better overall.

 

[BrewKaiser]

The beauty of our hobby is that there are so many different brewing options to cater to every brewer's individual preference, concerns, goals, budgets, and time. This means we also all have very strong opinions about our preferences and approach.

Both RIMs and HERMs can work fantastically and produce wonderful beer assuming you think through your design, element types and sizes, and manage flow rates. Many of you who posted here have great examples of both systems that I admire.

I took the hybrid route of a HEX. This meant added equipment, plumbing, elements, electronics, and cost. To me it's a marriage of what makes RIMs and HERMs both great but also provides me with additional functionality (ie 2 elements heating strike, quick mash step, maintain whirlpool temp, wort chiller, easy clean up, etc) beyond just mashing. Cost and complexity alone makes it overkill for most people, but at the end of the day - like most of you who feel strongly about the benefits of RIMS over HERMs or vice-versa -it meets my objectives.

I am not advocating HEX for everyone, just throwing it out there to the OP as another option to consider in addition to RIMs or HERMs.

 

[BrunDog]

I think @Bobby_M made some good points above... at the end of the day RIMS will generally require a 3rd element (with associated electronics) if you have an HLT. This is one of the reasons I personally went with high/low power RIMS and direct sparge water heating. It does take more controls to get right but keeps the design to 2 elements and two kettles. Like @BrewKaiser mentioned, different approaches are what make the hobby cool and personal preference lets us explore different pathways.

 

[augiedoggy]

I agree, My point of view was more geared towards the common beliefs that rims are less relable and have "issues"... Those are simply the result of poorly designed setups and not an actual trait of a rims system whereas I dont know of any herms system that can perform as quickly as a rims myself regardless of how well its designed... Maybe with additional hardware and heating elements

I know this is a bit of a stretch but I imagine people had similar debates about the automobile vs a horse when they first came onto the scene. since they both had their ups and downs and early vehicles had a lot of downs..
Eventually more commonly available better engineered cars made the comparison more of a moot point for most. Who knows maybe simpler more foolproof rims will come into the marketplace and be a game changer like electric is over propane for many..

 

[Silentdrinker]

What percentage of RIMS systems would you estimate are properly set up?

Most of the ones I see written about on HBT have no flow meters or pump monitors. A cursory search for RIMS SCORTCHED WORT on HBT found several anecdotal reports.

You don't need to worry about flow or the pump to failsafe the RIMS. A flow meter would be more important to avoid dry firing the RIMS element.

If the liquid in the rims gets stalled, the temp probe will detect the temp and shut off the element. So the liquid could never reach more than 153f if my controller is set for 153f.

If people don't set it up properly, it's on them. But that doesn't mean HERMS is better due to this scenario.

I have my sensor in a T fitting at the exit of the rims so the probe is inside the chamber. I then built a long sensor probe that I'm able to move around. It allows me to place it anywhere inside the mash bed just to monitor the temp throughout the bed.

My process uses the RIMS temp probe for the automation.

So if the flow ever stops, that temp probe won't allow the rims to continue to heat past the set temp.

Now if a process relies on the temps in the mash, you have a different story. Once flow stops, the bed will continue to get cold so the element continues to build heat. That's not a smart setup.

 

[golfindia]

I put a sight glass on my mash tun with the port just below the false bottom. It works as a great (relative) vaccum gauge to show RIMS flow. I wait till the column stabilizes before turning on the RIMS. Sometimes this occurs when pump is full open, sometimes not (rice, corn, oats...)