Red Sour - hints needed

[theQ]

Hello,

I need some help to get a red sour going.

I had some Belgian Flanders and some Goose Island Flanders Red. I really like the style. What I don't get is.

1. do I need to age them year (can I turn themaround in 2-3 months)
2. how do they taste a bit sweet ?
3. what makes them fruity
4. do they age them with oak barrel (red wine) ? Can I use chips ?

I made a sour trying to emulate a Framboise. It was good but sour, dry - I did like it quite a bit but wasn't what I thought I was targetting. Had to age it for 1 year but it did turn out like a true sour not like a Flanders. It wasn't as creamy nor just tart as the Framboise.

How do I get there ? If anyone brews Flanders/Framboise like I'd love to hear some of you secrets if of course can share them

My best!
Q

 

[MileHighBrewer]

No, you cannot turn it around in 2-3 months. Most commercial flanders are pastuerized to kill everything, then backsweetened. Many are blended at the end of aging with younger beer as well, which retains sweetness. If you keg, this may be possible.

What framboise were you trying to recreate? Lindemanns? If so, same deal, kill the beer, add lots of flavoring and sweeteners, not really that easy for homebrewers.

I have have made a few burgundy sours that retained some sweetness. This was due to a higher abv, which will inhibit, not stop, the bugs from going too crazy. Still very sour though. In a clean beer you would just leave unfermentables for sweetness and body. Problem with brett....not much if anything, that they cannot ferment.

 

[Dogue]

Traditionally, no, you can't turn it around in a few months. However, you could consider using the De Bom Blend (when it's released again), or you could do what I've done:

-start with a big pitch of active lactobacillus starter and let it go (ideally around 100F) for several days (if you have a pH meter, you can watch the pH go down)
-when the gravity and pH have dropped, pitch sacc and brett (multiple strains are good, active starters will help things finish up more quickly too)
-I added red wine-soaked oak chips right off the bat
-ferment it in a plastic bucket; if you let it go for a few months, a slight acetic character might reveal itself, and that's fairly typical for the style

Now, when I've done it this way, there is the sweetness (from the malt bill) and the vinous characteristics of a decent Flanders Red, but it is missing a little of the depth. You might consider adding fruit if using this method. On the plus side, I've had Flanders Reds ready in a few months.

 

[feinbera]

Another thing to try would be to brew a red Berlinerwiesse – sour your mash (or, if you don't want to deal with a dozen pounds of reeking, rotting grain, just your wort) for a couple days before your main boil, boil the soured wort to kill the lactobacillus and add your hops, then pitch brewer's yeast (maybe a saison strain, to make up for some of what you're missing by not pitching brett?) and ferment, prime, and bottle condition as you would any other clean beer.

You lose the complexity that brett, pediococcus, and lots of time bring to a traditionally-brewed Flanders red, but you gain the ability to leave unfermentables in the finished beer to add sweetness and body without having to worry about brett slowly turning them into thin, overattenuated bottle bombs.

 

[theQ]

I like that there is an option, I need not to work on a plan.I like the idea of sour mash. There is no reason I should not sour it with commercial lacto right ? (De Dom as suggested)

Let me see if I get the whole process right.

* 48 hours before the brew day I hit 20-30% of the bill grain with the right amount of water(1.25gal/lbs?) at a 100-120F and let it sour till brew day. (temp needs to be kept up ?).
* Then normally mash the rest 70-80% at higher temp to get some unfermentables out (158-160F?)
* Before the mash out add the sour mash, reheat and mash out, then boil (that will kill the souring agent yet would)
* Pitch a yeast that cannot go above certain ABV% so leave some sweetnes behing ? I don't think saison yeasts do that
* Add oak chips (and maybe fruits ?)

Some open questions:
* what kind of grain bill, something like a red ale ? I never brew a Berlinerwiesse, I must have to admit that I never had one.(shame on me - you can recommend me one that's available)
* form hops perspective, the Flanders I had they are low IBU 20ish, and most likely are Saaz/Goldings
* what kind of sweetener ?


I could do most of the above and add Brett to get some brett character out and then pasteurize it then bottle it with some sweetener.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I do my entire grain bill in the sour mash, and do my conversion rest BEFORE I sour mash. Otherwise the pH will probably be too low for the starch conversion enzymes. Either way, I'd want to make sure the starches in that sour mash get converted so you don't get residual starches in the beer. If you're pitching bugs after the boil, or going no boil, then it's less of an issue since bugs would eat the starch, but if you want to kill the bugs off then that starch will remain.

When I sour mash, I do a conversion rest around 150 first (in your case, yes, mash on the higher end, I'd probably go 154 or so), then chill the mash down to ~110F with an immersion chiller, drop the pH to 4.5 with lactic acid (to inhibit the growth of enteric bacteria, so that I'm primarily getting activity from lactic acid bacteria), toss in a half pound of crushed pils malt, and let it go. I do it about 4 days for my Berliner Weisse (although 48 hours is probably about right for what you want), then sparge and boil, and then pitch whichever ale yeast.

Your resulting beer would probably more closely approximate an Oud Bruin than a Flanders Red (ie softer lactic sourness, and less Brett/acetic character). To which, I would embrace it, go a touch darker, and try and get some chocolaty notes in there too. Normally for a Berliner I'd pitch either an Alt or Kolsch yeast, but in your case I'd probably go with a softer Belgian strain.

That's my 2C.

 

[kingwood-kid]

I've made a sour-mashed red/brown as others have mentioned. Without Brett, you can have the beer ready in about the same timeline as any other ale. On its own it was pretty unexciting, but with berries it was fantastic. Framboise means raspberry, but blueberries, blackberries, cherries and other fruits are all good in this style. Flanders Reds usually have an acetic character, so if you want that you could try adding a tiny amount of vinegar. Doing the beer this way won't give you the complexity and funk that Brett and Pedio would provide, but you can still get a beer that's enjoyable on its own merit.

 

[theQ]

I cannot wait to try it. I do 10 galons. Do you use ph tape ? I assume that any HBS would carry lactic acid.

I do my entire grain bill in the sour mash, and do my conversion rest BEFORE I sour mash. Otherwise the pH will probably be too low for the starch conversion enzymes. Either way, I'd want to make sure the starches in that sour mash get converted so you don't get residual starches in the beer. If you're pitching bugs after the boil, or going no boil, then it's less of an issue since bugs would eat the starch, but if you want to kill the bugs off then that starch will remain.

When I sour mash, I do a conversion rest around 150 first (in your case, yes, mash on the higher end, I'd probably go 154 or so), then chill the mash down to ~110F with an immersion chiller, drop the pH to 4.5 with lactic acid (to inhibit the growth of enteric bacteria, so that I'm primarily getting activity from lactic acid bacteria), toss in a half pound of crushed pils malt, and let it go. I do it about 4 days for my Berliner Weisse (although 48 hours is probably about right for what you want), then sparge and boil, and then pitch whichever ale yeast.

Your resulting beer would probably more closely approximate an Oud Bruin than a Flanders Red (ie softer lactic sourness, and less Brett/acetic character). To which, I would embrace it, go a touch darker, and try and get some chocolaty notes in there too. Normally for a Berliner I'd pitch either an Alt or Kolsch yeast, but in your case I'd probably go with a softer Belgian strain.

That's my 2C.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I cannot wait to try it. I do 10 galons. Do you use ph tape ? I assume that any HBS would carry lactic acid.

I use a pH meter. And yes, your LHBS should carry lactic acid. And a pH meter. The meter will be more accurate than the tape, assuming you properly calibrate it.

 

[theQ]

I use a pH meter. And yes, your LHBS should carry lactic acid. And a pH meter. The meter will be more accurate than the tape, assuming you properly calibrate it.

Say... lacto bugs create lactic acid. By using lactic acid wouldn't that add on to the sourness ? Is the lactic acid bought in the stores synthetically made ?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Say... lacto bugs create lactic acid. By using lactic acid wouldn't that add on to the sourness ? Is the lactic acid bought in the stores synthetically made ?

Not sure how it's made. And if you add enough lactic acid, yes. But going from mash pH of 5.3ish to 4.5ish isn't a huge difference. The sour mash will drop it into the 3s which is much more noticeable.

Some folks literally make Berliner Weisse by just adding lactic acid. It'll get sour but won't have any complexity from all the other intermediaries from actual fermentation.

 

[theQ]

Thank you. I was was wondering what's the impact.

How is the BerlinerWeiss aging, does it develop any character ? One thing i love about Belgians is that they become complex once they age.

As I mentioned before I want target a higher OG but the FG has to be higher than usual (1.015ish maybe higher), to do that I am thinking to get a yeast that has low tolerance to alcohol but will have food to make alcohol above what it tolerates so the fermentation stops.

Is there a know path to get there or I have to try/error till get where I want ?