Recipe critique-AG Chocolate Stout

[Junk-Man]

Hey guys, been modding recipes for a while but trying my hand at designing for the first time. I'm trying to do an easy drinking chocolate stout, I really like Young's, but i am not trying to directly replicate, just want something chocolatey and tasty.
Anyway, beersmith seems to think the below is reasonable, but human input is appreciated. Particularly interested in advice on:
1. The effect the Lactose and Oatmeal inclusions will have on the body/mouthfeel(going for a medium/heavy but don't want to end up with glass porridge)
2. the hop additions (enough bitterness, or no?)

7 lb Pale 2 Row
1.5 lb Chocloate Malt (Uk)
.50 lb Crystal 60l
.50 lb Dextrin/Carapils
.25 lb Aromatic Malt
.50 lb Roasted Barley
.75 lb Flaked oats
.75 lb Lactose


1.4 oz Fuggle (60 min)
.25 oz East (15 min)
Irish Moss (15 mins)

.5lb cocoa (15 min)
.5lb Cocoa nibs (secondary)

Thanks in advance guys!

 

[jjeffers09]

If it were me I would use Midnight Wheat to get me to the color I wanted, I would not go with 1/2 a lb of roasted barley in a sweet stout. It would give you too much coffee astringency and bitterness. I think sweet stouts are better with M.O. rather than 2-row. UK chocolate is on point. Cocoa nibs will give chocolatey aroma without the flavor imo. I think chocolate bars or chocolate powder in the boil is better than nibs. 1/2 cup for a 5 gallon boil or .1 cup per gallon. Unsweetened bitter cocao powder is what I like. Youngs Double Chocolate stout uses real chocolate in the boil. Also I would nib it at the same ratio as a dry hop 1-1.1oz per gallon. let it chill for a couple days then pull a sample, check every 8 hrs after and pull when ready.

 

[Junk-Man]

Thanks for the tip about roasted barley, I haven't used it before, but most of the recipes I researched seemed to include it.
What kind of flavour will the midnight wheat contribute?

 

[Double_D]

Most recipes include roasted barley because it's a traditional component for color and astringency. Between your carapils, c60, and lactose as long as you mash a little higher and use a flavorful English yeast I don't think you need to change out the roasted barley for midnight wheat.
The main difference I've noticed is it's less astringent, because it doesn't have a husk, but that's my .02.

Young's doesn't put chocolate in their beer. They add natural chocolate flavoring. Says it right on the label. Usually that means extract. I've made chocolate porters and finished my Christmas beers on nibs with great results, they had flavor and aroma. There was also chocolate malt in the mash which you have included so I think you're fine. I do ten gallon batches, and use 1lb total, you're doubling the amount of nibs I use. You'll have chocolate flavor, no doubt about that.

If you use nibs vs cocoa powder it will take longer but you won't have to check it every 8 hours. Opening up your fermenter constantly to sample beer is just introducing more O2.

 

[Junk-Man]

Okay great to hear from someone who's used nibs before.
My plan was to use Cocoa Powder in the BOIL and Nibs in the secondary, so with that setup probably not as much need to check frequently?

Also, if you use 1lb in 10 gal, wouldn't the ratio be the same as what I'm doing here? (1/2lb in 5.5 gal) or are you figuring in the cocoa powder as well?

 

[Double_D]

Yes it would! sorry I misread, hadn't had my coffee yet.

 

[Junk-Man]

for the nibs would you put them in a grain bag, or just chuck em right in the brew?

 

[Double_D]

I just put them straight in, then use a filter on my transfer tubing

 

[jjeffers09]

Most recipes include roasted barley because it's a traditional component for color and astringency. Between your carapils, c60, and lactose as long as you mash a little higher and use a flavorful English yeast I don't think you need to change out the roasted barley for midnight wheat.
The main difference I've noticed is it's less astringent, because it doesn't have a husk, but that's my .02.

Young's doesn't put chocolate in their beer. They add natural chocolate flavoring. Says it right on the label. Usually that means extract. I've made chocolate porters and finished my Christmas beers on nibs with great results, they had flavor and aroma. There was also chocolate malt in the mash which you have included so I think you're fine. I do ten gallon batches, and use 1lb total, you're doubling the amount of nibs I use. You'll have chocolate flavor, no doubt about that.

If you use nibs vs cocoa powder it will take longer but you won't have to check it every 8 hours. Opening up your fermenter constantly to sample beer is just introducing more O2.

Youngs uses dark chocolate in the kettle. I am not sure how you take real dark chocolate and chocolate essence (extract) combines to deliver a stout of with real credentials.

http://www.charleswells.co.uk/our-company/our-products/youngs-double-chocolate-stout/

says so right on their web site...

as for the nibs I go for 1oz/gal and I make a tincture using dark Caribbean rum the charred oak barrel stuff.

 

[Double_D]

I am not sure how you take real dark chocolate and chocolate essence (extract) combines to deliver a stout of with real credentials.
.

I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying. not really sure what you're saying. Youngs isn't a real stout to you?

 

[Double_D]

I am not sure how you take real dark chocolate and chocolate essence (extract) combines to deliver a stout of with real credentials.
.

I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying. not really sure what you're saying. Youngs isn't a real stout to you?

 

[action_todd]

You've gotten some really good replies pertaining to the malt and adjuncts. I will add my 2 cents on the hops. You've picked one pretty standard to the style. Everything I've read says for traditional stouts you want the IBUs to be about equal the OG Measurement. So, if you're making a 1.050OG wort, you'd want to shoot for 45-50 IBUs.

 

[Double_D]

You've gotten some really good replies pertaining to the malt and adjuncts. I will add my 2 cents on the hops. You've picked one pretty standard to the style. Everything I've read says for traditional stouts you want the IBUs to equal the OG Measurement. So, if you're making a 1.050OG wort, you'd want to shoot for 50 IBUs.

I'd probably clarify that to say "stouts that aren't supposed sweet". Generally I agree with that though

 

[ChemErik]

One item I would add is to either buy roasted nibs, or roast them yourself. I recently made a chocolate stout using non-roasted nibs and got a stronger than desired astringency.

 

[jjeffers09]

that is the description on the website word by word. I like Double Chocolate Stout, Its a good sweet stout. I little sweet, a little bitter, smooth body, nice aroma. Yeah its a good stout, no problem with Youngs at all.

 

[Junk-Man]

Update:

Brewed using Double D's suggestion for a higher mash. Also planning on lightly roasting the nibs before racking onto them.
I done-****ed-up and put in a whole lb of roasted barley because I mistook it for a one lb bag of chocolate malt when I was milling .....soooo we'll see how that goes

thanks for the input everybody

 

[jjeffers09]

... maybe save with some lactose to balance the dry roasty wort. And get your pH higher than normal for a smoother body/mouthfeel. what 5.5-5.6

 

[Junk-Man]

how would I add more lactose at this point? dissolve in sanitized water and add to secondary?

 

[Double_D]

That's about the only way. Wait until it finishes fermenting though. Just be patient.

 

[Junk-Man]

so, fermentation completed at 1.024 (three days steady at that gravity)
I kegged and force carbed, and now that it's cold, the dark roasty-ness is actually not too bad, maybe not to some people's taste, but I've had craft stouts that are darker.
the one thing that's kind of disappointing is head retention. it pours with a decent half inch of foam on top, but it disapates in about 15-20 seconds. is 1/Lb of crystal malts (1/2 carapils, 1/2 Crystal 10L) too low for head contribution? I'd read that you should stay below 10% total grist and was trying not to overshoot this too much.
The beer is a little oily from the cocoa powder, could this have sabotaged my retention?

 

[WarEagleBrewer]

If you want a better head that's smooth and creamy....try this...at least once. Pour a glass about 6/8 full. Try to get AS LITTLE head as possible when doing this. Now, take a CLEAN syringe (I use a turkey injector) without the needle and suck up 5ml of air, and then 5ml of your stout. Next, PUT THE GLASS IN THE SINK.....just in case. Submerge the syringe in the beer and shoot the 5ml of air and 5ml of beer back into the beer in the glass. Watch the cascade. Sip the smoothness. If you don't like it, don't do it again. This replicates the nitrogen effect of the Guinness widget and helps to bring out some of the flavors in the beer.

 

[Chanoc]

...
The beer is a little oily from the cocoa powder, could this have sabotaged my retention?

Almost any oil will have a detrimental effect on head retention.
So that may be the culprit.

 

[Junk-Man]

Ahh, thought the oil might be to blame. so I won't adjust any upcoming recipes with this data untill I see how the Carapils performs in a cleaner test

@WarEagle I thought you were messing with me right up til the end of the post haha
I'll have to try that technique

 

[JackSmash]

I've heard horror stories about brewing with chocolate because of the oils. How does one avoid that? Powder form?

 

[WarEagleBrewer]

Ahh, thought the oil might be to blame. so I won't adjust any upcoming recipes with this data untill I see how the Carapils performs in a cleaner test

@WarEagle I thought you were messing with me right up til the end of the post haha
I'll have to try that technique

You can check it out on YouTube, but videos don't do it justice. Think about it....air is like....78% nitrogen. This technique replicates what the widget does....knocking carbonation out of solution using nitrogen. It's a little different since you are not using pure nitrogen, but it is close enough. I was fairly impressed when I tried it. It beats the hell out of buying a nitro setup.

 

[jjeffers09]

I think it is negligible, does a IPA struggle with head retention? There is oil in hops... The thing to me is there is not enough oil that I think would damage the head so bad that you need a correction. Youngs double chocolate stout uses real, chocolate, bars and I have not seen a head problem with their commercial beers or my chocolate stouts either... I carb mine higher than the norm, so maybe that's it. But I would assume the grist, mash process, mill, and pH/water profiles are a better place to start. IMO, but I am no pro...