Re-occurring carbonation issues

[tdjb]

This forum has helped me a ton so I'm hoping it'll come through again

I've recently just completed my 4th all grain batch and it's been in the bottles for about 7 days now. I opened up a tester today (hear me out haha) and got the sound of carbonation but when I poured it the beer was almost totally flat.

What worries me is this is the third beer in a row that's done this. My first beer was fine but since then I've had major carbonation issues. I've been using the same process for bottling (same bottles,corn sugar, star-san, etc) so I'm totally stumped.

I think my first beer I racked to a secondary (these last three I have not) but aside from that the fermentation process has been the same. I wait until my gravity readings level out then put the fermenter in the basement for a week to try and drop out some yeast.

Any ideas on what could be going on here? The beer itself tastes good so it's really frustrating to have it not carbonated.

 

[bob1852]

What are they like after conditioning for 3+ weeks at 70+*F temps and then ~48 hours the fridge?

Until these questions are answered, we can't really help...

 

[Wiezer]

You seem to know that opening a bottle at seven days is not the right thing to do. If you read around this site, you'll see that you should bottle condition for three weeks minimum to correctly carbonate your beer. The fact that you opened up your beer and got the c02 hiss means that there is c02 in the bottle, it just hasn't been absorbed into the beer yet. Give it time!

How are you having major carbonation issues at only 7 days? Seems as though you are being a bit melodramatic.

 

[Nuggethead]

It's probably just that it needs more time. I have never had a bottled beer carbonated in 7 days, sometimes depending on the style, 3 weeks isn't really enough. Even at 2 weeks, carbonation will form and you can hear it when you pop one open, but it hasn't had enough time to force the CO2 into solution so the beer will be flat. Rule of thumb is 3 weeks at 70F, then refrigerate for another week minimum to really force it into solution, but 3 weeks refrigeration to clear it nicely. To do bottling correctly, it can't be rushed.

 

[tdjb]

Sorry guys, I probably wasn't clear enough. This third problem brew I opened at 7 days, the previous two problem brews have sat for months without ever carbing up. I have my 3rd batch that was bottled last summer that still has no carbonation.

I keep them in our kitchen while they condition so while it might not be exactly 70 deg. it's probably pretty close.

 

[wyzazz]

What do you prime with? How much do you use?

 

[bootney]

First, I'd make sure your pitching rates are correct. I usually take total fermented beer volume, let's say 5 gallons, and multiply that by .85, and that equals 4.25 and that's what I go with for ounces of cane sugar. I also follow this regardless of the beer temp at bottling. I have 16 batches under my belt and have come to this number based solely on personal carbonation preference.

Now granted certain styles have more or less carbonation, but I chose this for all my styles because I like it.

I find that Belgian yeast strains from wyeast bottle condition much faster than say 1056 or other non Belgian strains. I have had two batches struggle with carbonation and that was due to under pitching the yeast.

So I may sneak a taste on a tester at 3 weeks, if it's a non Belgian, but my experience has shown me to wait at least a month or even longer to enjoy a new batch.

 

[nos33]

when you put them in the basement to "get all the yeast out" how cold is your basement? and if you get the "yeast out" what is going to carb your brew? I would think that keeping your fermenter at 70 and bottling at 70 is the ideal thing to do. yeah you might have a little haze on the bottom of your bottle but it makes sense. I have only 3 batches under my belt but none of them have ever had carbing issues.

 

[tdjb]

I use 4oz corn sugar (per how to brew) boiled in 2 cups of water. All of my brews have been 5-5.5 gallons. For all but one I've used Safeale US-05 yeast and they have all been pretty low gravity beers.

As far as putting the beer in the basement, I've read on here that this cold crashing is generally ok and won't drop out enough yeast to prevent you from carbing the beer in the bottle, maybe that isn't the case for me? I can't give you an exact temp of our basement each time but it would probably be in the high 50's to low 60's (air temp).

 

[wyzazz]

I use 4oz corn sugar (per how to brew) boiled in 2 cups of water. All of my brews have been 5-5.5 gallons. For all but one I've used Safeale US-05 yeast and they have all been pretty low gravity beers.

As far as putting the beer in the basement, I've read on here that this cold crashing is generally ok and won't drop out enough yeast to prevent you from carbing the beer in the bottle, maybe that isn't the case for me? I can't give you an exact temp of our basement each time but it would probably be in the high 50's to low 60's (air temp).

4oz is around 2.5vols for 5gals so that's not the issue, but your carbing temp is definitely not ideal. You want 3 weeks at 70F minimum for good carbonation, if you're lower than 70 then you need to extend that time quite a bit. I'll pull the classic llazy_llama chart that Revvy busts out all the time here. It's illustrating the effect that Gravity has on carbing, but you get the idea right?

 

[tdjb]

Sorry, my forum communication is lacking a bit.
The beer is only in the basement right before I bottle (in the fermenter). After I've bottled it I keep it in our kitchen cabinets where it's about 68-72 degrees.

 

[jonmohno]

I use 4oz corn sugar (per how to brew) boiled in 2 cups of water. All of my brews have been 5-5.5 gallons. For all but one I've used Safeale US-05 yeast and they have all been pretty low gravity beers.

As far as putting the beer in the basement, I've read on here that this cold crashing is generally ok and won't drop out enough yeast to prevent you from carbing the beer in the bottle, maybe that isn't the case for me? I can't give you an exact temp of our basement each time but it would probably be in the high 50's to low 60's (air temp).

Not ok for faster carbing beer though the higher the temp the more likely attenuated it will be to carb that beer up.
I would only consider cellaring it in my basement after i knew how carbonition is and as far as cold crashing, well that is what the refrigerator is for to help clear up the beer once its carbed.

 

[tdjb]

Not ok for faster carbing beer though the higher the temp the more likely attenuated it will be to carb that beer up.
I would only consider cellaring it in my basement after i knew how carbonition is and as far as cold crashing, well that is what the refrigerator is for to help clear up the beer once its carbed.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my original post, see the one before yours (I carb the beer right around 70).

My only thoughts are my 2nd and 3rd brews (the ones that were flat, 1st brew was great) both were kits that came with the yeast, is it possible I got bad dry yeast? Maybe this one will be good but since it's only been a week I can't tell yet but it didn't come as a kit so if it also comes out flat that'll rule out that option.

 

[BalticBrewer]

What you might want to try is change your priming sugar. I know a guy who had a similar problem, turned out his LHBS had sold him maltodextrin (unfermentable) instead of corn sugar. Maybe just add some (boiled) cane sugar to one of your uncarbed bottles and recap it, see what happens after a week or so.

Cheers
Bb

 

[wyzazz]

What you might want to try is change your priming sugar. I know a guy who had a similar problem, turned out his LHBS had sold him maltodextrin (unfermentable) instead of corn sugar. Maybe just add some (boiled) cane sugar to one of your uncarbed bottles and recap it, see what happens after a week or so.

Cheers
Bb

All I use is cane sugar to prime my bottles with. This is the calculator I use to figure out how much I need. Might work, I suppose it couldn't hurt.

 

[tdjb]

Well, two weeks today and this batch appears to have the same issues as the previous 2. Almost no carbonation at all

I've put them in a closet with a heater set at 70deg and roused the yeast a bit, we'll see if that helps them but aside from that I'm not sure what to do. Makes me nervous to brew another batch as this is the 3rd in a row that has had almost no carbonation...

 

[Theogard]

Are you sure that you are getting a good seal on your bottles? If the caps are not on tight enough, the CO2 could just be leaking out.

 

[tdjb]

Are you sure that you are getting a good seal on your bottles? If the caps are not on tight enough, the CO2 could just be leaking out.

I thought about that but I'm not sure how to really verify they are tight aside from a visual inspection (which I've done). I used new caps though for this latest batch.

 

[SKMO]

I thought about that but I'm not sure how to really verify they are tight aside from a visual inspection (which I've done). I used new caps though for this latest batch.

Some real Rocket Science follows here.... Lay the bottles on their side. If you have a weak seal it will be pretty obvious.

Better yet lay them on their side in the closet above your Significant Other's clothing. You will get immediate notification if your bottles are not well sealed.

You only need 3 things to ferment or bottle:

1) Yeast - You have that, it does not go away.
2) Sugar - Of some sort, are you positive you added the sugar - real common mistake we have all made
3) Environment - Temp is obvious but is there a chance you left a healthy dose of clorox or yeast averse sanitizer in your bottles.

Despite previous comments, I'm not sure I have ever had a beer in the bottle for a week that did not show some positive signs of being carbonated. I have never had one absolutely flat at 2 weeks that suddenly sprang to life. But that's just my experience.

 

[tdjb]

Some real Rocket Science follows here.... Lay the bottles on their side. If you have a weak seal it will be pretty obvious.

Better yet lay them on their side in the closet above your Significant Other's clothing. You will get immediate notification if your bottles are not well sealed.

You only need 3 things to ferment or bottle:

1) Yeast - You have that, it does not go away.
2) Sugar - Of some sort, are you positive you added the sugar - real common mistake we have all made
3) Environment - Temp is obvious but is there a chance you left a healthy dose of clorox or yeast averse sanitizer in your bottles.

Despite previous comments, I'm not sure I have ever had a beer in the bottle for a week that did not show some positive signs of being carbonated. I have never had one absolutely flat at 2 weeks that suddenly sprang to life. But that's just my experience.

Come on now, gotta give me more credit then that! The caps do not let any liquid by, gas I can't say for sure.

As far as adding the sugar, yes, I'm 100% sure I've added it to all the batches that ended up being flat.

Your final statement is what has me worried though. On my first batch (the one that came out great) the beer was drinkable at 2 weeks no problem. The 2nd brew that was only so-so on carbonation was still pretty good at 2 weeks as well. The 3rd was flat up until now 5+ months later and this latest brew is not looking so hot. Instead of getting better I'm actually getting worse

Would star-san impact the beers ability to carbonate? I know everyone says don't fear the foam, but what about the liquid? I tried hard this time around to get as much as I could out of the bottles before filling them up, just to see if it helped any.

 

[ed_brews_now]

I had a low gravity beer. 10 days was good enough. I guess that picture really works.

 

[Wyrmwood]

What are they like after conditioning for 3+ weeks at 70+*F temps and then ~48 hours the fridge?

Until these questions are answered, we can't really help...

+1

- and for me, the ~48 hours in fridge is crucial. I know it's kind of an issue; you want to steal off a beer or two to see if it's "ready", but in my [albeit limited] experience, it needs the ~48 hours in the fridge on top of whatever time it took to carb for it to really be "fizzy". I think Revvy called this "drawing CO2 into solution" or something. Bottom line, in my case, it needs to be carbed (~3 weeks), then fridged (~2 days), to taste fizzy.

 

[tdjb]

Well I hope you guys are right. I'll pop one in the fridge friday (will be three weeks by then) and leave it until sunday before I test it.