Questions about fermentaion steps and...

[Conway]

Hello all,
New to the forum, been reading a ton of great info for awhile.

Questions:

What is the best temp range for the secondary fermentaion stage. I read in book that the best temp is 55 F (ideal) for ales. Would 60 - 65 F be good too.

When to take the Final Gravity Reading:
A. After transfering wort from prim. to secondary fermentaion carboy.
B. After transfering wort from secondary to bottle bucket.

I took my OG (SG) @ 70 F from the wort in the kettle. My OG (SG) was 1.035. I read to siphon wort to prem fermentaion bucket (or carboy) and areate then take OG (SG) (First solo brew and i forgot what i read).
Kit states SG: 1.042 - 1.046
FG: 1.010 - 1.012
Would I have gotten a low reading because I took the reading before areating the wort? I read that i need to add a degree (or point) to the OG (SG) because I the temp was 70 F.

Cheers,

 

[MalFet]

Secondary fermentation is a misnomer unless you are adding more sugar somehow (fruit, honey, etc.) If you have transferred this to a second vessel to get it off the yeast (not usually necessary in my opinion, but to each their own) you should keep it at the yeast's fermentation temp.

I tend to ferment at a steady temp, then bump it up a few degrees at the end just to clean up. I don't transfer to a secondary, but if you do for whatever reason that is as good of a time as any to check gravity.

Aeration won't affect gravity. If this was an extract kit, its likely that the top up water hadn't been properly mixed with the wort.

 

[martygrumps]

I don't think that the 60-65 would affect your beer either way. I've rested my beers in both temperatures. As the winter cold hit, the basement got colder and the 55F temps were easy to hit. I have not had any beers go bad.

I've also experimented with the hydrometer. I've taken the gravity readings before and after aeration in to the primary and the OG was the same. I've also taken readings before moving to the secondary and used it as an intermediate FG. I suggest taking the FG right before you transfer it to the bottling bucket if you are mixing it with a corn sugar solution.

I purchased a wine thief to extract some of the beer for my readings and it works well. Just remember to sanitize.. sanitize.. sanitize. Oh and don't be afraid to taste as you go too.

 

[djonas]

I think the reason why they suggest checking the gravity post aeration is because aeration generally mixes up all the sugars in the wort. So, if you leave your wort still while cooling then you are also giving the sugars time to settle. If you take a reading from somewhere around the top or middle of the kettle, you may be getting more water than solution. The first time my initial gravity reading was noticeably low, I freaked out until I remembered my good old fashioned chemistry class!

 

[Conway]

Secondary fermentation is a misnomer unless you are adding more sugar somehow (fruit, honey, etc.) If you have transferred this to a second vessel to get it off the yeast (not usually necessary in my opinion, but to each their own) you should keep it at the yeast's fermentation temp.

I tend to ferment at a steady temp, then bump it up a few degrees at the end just to clean up. I don't transfer to a secondary, but if you do for whatever reason that is as good of a time as any to check gravity.

Aeration won't affect gravity. If this was an extract kit, its likely that the top up water hadn't been properly mixed with the wort.

Thanks, I did use a extract + grain kit: Irish Red Ale.
I did a 5 gallon full boil. I started w/ ~6.5 gallon at start and had ~5.25-5.50(transfered a bit over the 5 gallon mark) when i transfered the wort to the prem. ferm.
True, It could have not properly got mixed when i checked. Used the siphon to fill the test jar from the kettle.

The prem. ferm was at 68 F the next morning then it dropped down to 63 F and stopped bubbling out of the lock (the temp outside was -4 F the night before). I moved it to a warmer area the night before and it wrapped it with a blanket, got it up to 68 F this morning but no CO 2 bubbling yet? I bought a heat wrap and a Johnson Thermo Control and will hook it up tonight (glad i have a friend that work at a brew shop). I will set up the temp to 70 - 72 F. I hope the yeast will kick in.

I don't think that the 60-65 would affect your beer either way. I've rested my beers in both temperatures. As the winter cold hit, the basement got colder and the 55F temps were easy to hit. I have not had any beers go bad.

I've also experimented with the hydrometer. I've taken the gravity readings before and after aeration in to the primary and the OG was the same. I've also taken readings before moving to the secondary and used it as an intermediate FG. I suggest taking the FG right before you transfer it to the bottling bucket if you are mixing it with a corn sugar solution.

I purchased a wine thief to extract some of the beer for my readings and it works well. Just remember to sanitize.. sanitize.. sanitize. Oh and don't be afraid to taste as you go too.

The kit had a corn sugar solution to add after moving it to the bottling bucket. I will take a reading after i transfer it to the secondary and will take another one before i transfer it to the bottling bucket (will use the reading for the FG). Then I will transfer it to the bottling buck and then add the corn sugar. Does that sound good.
I found this chart in a book last night:

Fermentation: Conditioning:
Ales 55 - 80 F * 55 - 68 F

Lagers 48 - 52 F * 33 - 38 F

I will just drop the temp down to maybe 65 - 68 in the secondary. Do you think this would be a good temp or should i go lower?

I was going to buy a fermtech Wine Thief. All in one and heard from friends they work great.

I think the reason why they suggest checking the gravity post aeration is because aeration generally mixes up all the sugars in the wort. So, if you leave your wort still while cooling then you are also giving the sugars time to settle. If you take a reading from somewhere around the top or middle of the kettle, you may be getting more water than solution. The first time my initial gravity reading was noticeably low, I freaked out until I remembered my good old fashioned chemistry class!

LOL, I freaked out a bit too...lol My wife is into beer (thank god) and helped me out a bit. It's been so long since i took a chemistry class (20 yrs) but i did think about the h2o but was not clear on the subject.

 

[MalFet]

Looks good. With an extract kit (with our without specialty grains) it's pretty much impossible to miss your gravity unless you use the wrong amount of water.

For the temperatures, you want to keep a fairly tight temperature during fermentation. For most ales, 55 is a bit on the cold side and 80 is way too hot. The bulk of your beers should ferment between 63 and 68, but you can research the strain of yeast you are using to understand how it will behave differently and different temperatures.

For conditioning ales, temperature is not quite as sensitive of an issue. It's generally a good idea to keep things on the cooler side, but any steady temperature within a reasonable range (say...40F to 70F) is probably largely equivalent. Lagers tend to have a long bulk conditioning stage at just above freezing, and this is more important to the style than it tends to be for ales. As others have mentioned, you can condition in your primary or you can opt to transfer to a separate brightening tank.

Good luck

 

[Conway]

Looks good. With an extract kit (with our without specialty grains) it's pretty much impossible to miss your gravity unless you use the wrong amount of water.

For the temperatures, you want to keep a fairly tight temperature during fermentation. For most ales, 55 is a bit on the cold side and 80 is way too hot. The bulk of your beers should ferment between 63 and 68, but you can research the strain of yeast you are using to understand how it will behave differently and different temperatures.

For conditioning ales, temperature is not quite as sensitive of an issue. It's generally a good idea to keep things on the cooler side, but any steady temperature within a reasonable range (say...40F to 70F) is probably largely equivalent. Lagers tend to have a long bulk conditioning stage at just above freezing, and this is more important to the style than it tends to be for ales. As others have mentioned, you can condition in your primary or you can opt to transfer to a separate brightening tank.

Good luck

Thanks again for the info!

The kit (a gift) came w/ Munton & Fison Ale 6 grams (yellow packet). The air lock started to bubble co2 that same night (last sunday), all day on Monday and then when i checked on Tues there was no more bubbles. Since then i have not seen anymore. Did the yeast go dormant? Like i stated earlier the temp dropped (on bucket) from 68 F on monday to 63 F on Tuesday due to the drop in temp outside. Should i add more yeast? Not sure if this batch is bad...

 

[MalFet]

Thanks again for the info!

The kit (a gift) came w/ Munton & Fison Ale 6 grams (yellow packet). The air lock started to bubble co2 that same night (last sunday), all day on Monday and then when i checked on Tues there was no more bubbles. Since then i have not seen anymore. Did the yeast go dormant? Like i stated earlier the temp dropped (on bucket) from 68 F on monday to 63 F on Tuesday due to the drop in temp outside. Should i add more yeast? Not sure if this batch is bad...

No need to worry so much

Remember...the yeast wants to make beer, and it is very good at making beer. Bubbles are a relatively poor indication of fermentation. Don't get me wrong; it's nice to see bubbles, but you can have both (a) bubbles without fermentation and (b) fermentation without bubbles. Using bubbles as a gauge of what's happening in your fermentor is extremely unreliable.

Instead, use a hydrometer to measure your gravity. If your gravity stays steady, your fermentation has stopped. If your fermentation has stopped in the vicinity of your expected FG, you are done. If it is much higher, it is worth trying to get the yeast active again.

Typically, I will leave my beer on my yeast for around three weeks. Sometimes more for a big beer, and sometimes less for a small beer if I know that my process was spot on and if I'm in a hurry to free up the fermentor. For beginners especially, though, 3-4 weeks is a really good idea. During this time, I don't even take a hydrometer reading unless I have reason to suspect that something is going wrong.

After a few days to a week of fermentation, the yeast will typically have consumed the majority of the sugars. At this point, the majority of them will drop into suspension, or flocculate. At this point, a small population of your yeast continues to work, "cleaning up" the beer by breaking down intermediate metabolic compounds and chewing away at some of the remaining complex sugars. You want to let them do this, it makes for better beer.

For your next batch do a bit of research into yeast pitching rates. The Mr. Malty calculator is a good thing to use. People don't typically build starters for dry yeast because it is relatively inexpensive to just buy more, but the calculator will tell you how many grams of yeast you should pitch for optimal results. This beer, you pitched a little bit low. You will still have delicious beer, but you'll get more consistent results if you pitch more yeast.

Also, if you think you are getting into brewing and are willing to upgrade your equipment a bit, the next thing you should consider buying is something that will allow you to control your temperatures a bit better. Some people use a minifridge, but there are certainly other DIY options as well.

But for now, let your beer warm back up to 68F and just let it stay there for the whole length of time. At some point (now if you're nervous or before you bottle if you are not), take a gravity reading to see where you stand.

 

[Conway]

Thanks for the link and info... I tend to over think/worry about things...lol...just as my wife.

I did buy a heat blanket and picked up a Johnson dig. Temp Controller (friend got me a good deal at a brewery shop) and have it up to 68F. I got the dial thermostat control but will bring it back for the digital one today (not that great for heating). First heading to Summit brewery for a tour with the wife then to Flat Earth brewery for a growler then his shop... fun day a head.

I did notice some bubbles today (couple per min) and will take a gravity reading tomorrow (7th day) and go from there.

I was wondering if i should keep this one to a single stage ferm. in the 6.5 bucket for another week and check the reading again? Or should i transfer it tomorrow (5 gallon carboy) if the reading is in target with the FG of this kit.

Cheers!

No need to worry so much

Remember...the yeast wants to make beer, and it is very good at making beer. Bubbles are a relatively poor indication of fermentation. Don't get me wrong; it's nice to see bubbles, but you can have both (a) bubbles without fermentation and (b) fermentation without bubbles. Using bubbles as a gauge of what's happening in your fermentor is extremely unreliable.

Instead, use a hydrometer to measure your gravity. If your gravity stays steady, your fermentation has stopped. If your fermentation has stopped in the vicinity of your expected FG, you are done. If it is much higher, it is worth trying to get the yeast active again.

Typically, I will leave my beer on my yeast for around three weeks. Sometimes more for a big beer, and sometimes less for a small beer if I know that my process was spot on and if I'm in a hurry to free up the fermentor. For beginners especially, though, 3-4 weeks is a really good idea. During this time, I don't even take a hydrometer reading unless I have reason to suspect that something is going wrong.

After a few days to a week of fermentation, the yeast will typically have consumed the majority of the sugars. At this point, the majority of them will drop into suspension, or flocculate. At this point, a small population of your yeast continues to work, "cleaning up" the beer by breaking down intermediate metabolic compounds and chewing away at some of the remaining complex sugars. You want to let them do this, it makes for better beer.

For your next batch do a bit of research into yeast pitching rates. The Mr. Malty calculator is a good thing to use. People don't typically build starters for liquid yeast because it is relatively inexpensive to just buy more, but the calculator will tell you how many grams of yeast you should pitch for optimal results. This beer, you pitched a little bit low. You will still have delicious beer, but you'll get more consistent results if you pitch more yeast.

Also, if you think you are getting into brewing and are willing to upgrade your equipment a bit, the next thing you should consider buying is something that will allow you to control your temperatures a bit better. Some people use a minifridge, but there are certainly other DIY options as well.

But for now, let your beer warm back up to 68F and just let it stay there for the whole length of time. At some point (now if you're nervous or before you bottle if you are not), take a gravity reading to see where you stand.

 

[MalFet]

Thanks for the link and info... I tend to over think/worry about things...lol...just as my wife.

I did buy a heat blanket and picked up a Johnson dig. Temp Controller (friend got me a good deal at a brewery shop) and have it up to 68F. I got the dial thermostat control but will bring it back for the digital one today (not that great for heating). First heading to Summit brewery for a tour with the wife then to Flat Earth brewery for a growler then his shop... fun day a head.

I did notice some bubbles today (couple per min) and will take a gravity reading tomorrow (7th day) and go from there.

I was wondering if i should keep this one to a single stage ferm. in the 6.5 bucket for another week and check the reading again? Or should i transfer it tomorrow (5 gallon carboy) if the reading is in target with the FG of this kit.

Cheers!

The heating blanket will work fine. You're lucky to have a cool basement. Heating is much less of an investment than cooling tends to be.

If you are asking my opinion, like I mentioned before I don't see any reason why you should transfer to a secondary. The benefits of a brightening tank are, in my opinion, slim to none existent, and especially as a beginner I think you run a far greater risk of damaging your beer with the unnecessary transfer than helping it. There are still some experienced people who like to use secondaries, but I'm not one of them. Just out of curiosity, who is telling you to do a secondary? I think the best advice would be to just walk away from the beer for another two weeks. It's hard, I know, but it's the best thing for it.

 

[torque2k]

People don't typically build starters for liquid yeast because it is relatively inexpensive to just buy more

I think you meant DRY yeast there. Liquid yeast users almost always use starters, as there are fewer yeast cells in a smack pack or vial than in a small packet of dry yeast.

 

[MalFet]

I think you meant DRY yeast there. Liquid yeast users almost always use starters, as there are fewer yeast cells in a smack pack or vial than in a small packet of dry yeast.

Yup. Good catch. I'll fix it.

 

[jonmohno]

I think you meant DRY yeast there. Liquid yeast users almost always use starters, as there are fewer yeast cells in a smack pack or vial than in a small packet of dry yeast.

Thats weird that there are fewer yeast cells, then why is it more expensive. I understand their is a huge variety in liquid. But having to make starters, less cells- why get them?

 

[MalFet]

a huge variety in liquid

You said it right there

It's more expensive because there's more involved in packaging, etc. Dry yeast is made in huge quantities and shipped out in cheap packages, and that's cool because dry yeast is relatively shelf-stable. Liquid yeast needs to be made fresh regularly, since it is still very much active.

 

[sjbeerman]

Thats weird that there are fewer yeast cells, then why is it more expensive. I understand their is a huge variety in liquid. But having to make starters, less cells- why get them?

Liquid yeast provides a specific character to the beer that many dry yeasts cannot. For example, you can't really make an authentic German Hefeweizen without a liquid wheat yeast. Also, many of the flavors in Belgian beer come directly from the Belgian liquid yeast. So, depending on what kind of beer you are brewing and characteristic flavors you want to impart in the beer, will determine whether you should use liquid or dry yeast. Personally, I prefer brewing wheat and Belgian beers, therefore I primarily stick to liquid yeast.

 

[Conway]

The heating blanket will work fine. You're lucky to have a cool basement. Heating is much less of an investment than cooling tends to be.

If you are asking my opinion, like I mentioned before I don't see any reason why you should transfer to a secondary. The benefits of a brightening tank are, in my opinion, slim to none existent, and especially as a beginner I think you run a far greater risk of damaging your beer with the unnecessary transfer than helping it. There are still some experienced people who like to use secondaries, but I'm not one of them. Just out of curiosity, who is telling you to do a secondary? I think the best advice would be to just walk away from the beer for another two weeks. It's hard, I know, but it's the best thing for it.

Thanks again.

MN weather can be so up and down. Monday it was -20 F w/ windchill's and on Fri it was ~34F and will drop down next wk...lol

I will hook up the blanket and walk away...lol The kit was saying it would be best to transfer it to the secondary.

Just traded the dial therm control for the digital Johnson Controls one. Reading the directions i need to open up the unit and change the jumpers to heat mode so it will turn on the blanket if the heat drops below 68F?!? Have you used one?

I would like to get a refrig and set up it for fermentation to keep the temp right down the road. It looks like a easy set up. Can a refrig maintain 68 F to 70 F temps with out many changes to the system?

Cheers,

Good info about the yeast too!

 

[MalFet]

Reading the directions i need to open up the unit and change the jumpers to heat mode so it will turn on the blanket if the heat drops below 68F?!? Have you used one?

I haven't used a Johnson controller in a while, but often you need to switch jumpers to indicate if you are heating or cooling.

I would like to get a refrig and set up it for fermentation to keep the temp right down the road. It looks like a easy set up. Can a refrig maintain 68 F to 70 F temps with out many changes to the system?

Yep. No problem. So long as it is cooler than ambient.

 

[jonmohno]

Yeast is weird. I mean think about it.