question about LME, DME

[jrodder]

Okay this is something that has been bothering me, not sure if I am just being a moron or if the terms have been interchangeable.

DME = Dried Malt Extract, OR Dark Malt Extract?

LME = Liquid Malt Extract, OR Light Malt Extract?

If its LME being liquid malt extract and the recipe doesn't say anything other than "LME", is it pale? Amber? Do you just go for whatever style it seems it should be depending on the final product?

 

[DRonco]

Dme: Dry
Lme: Liquid

And yes, I believe it's style dependent when choosing the final type.

 

[Caveman3141]

In my experience D and L stand for "dried" and "liquid" respectively. Honestly, in my extract brewing I use light extract as the base for just about every recipe and use steeping grains for color. With a few exceptions, of course. Obviously I would use wheat extract as the base for a wheat beer, etc but for the most part I just keep it simple.

 

[jrodder]

Thanks for the replies. I gues the other thing that threw me is when a recipe calls for "9.9 lbs of LME" and ".5 lbs of DME"

I mean, they are essentially the same thing, no? One being liquid and another being dried. That's what made me wonder if I was reading the terms wrong.

Specifically:

9.9 lbs. LME
0.5 lbs. DME
1.5 lbs. 2-row pale malt
1.5 lbs. flaked barley
1.5 lbs. Belgian black malt
10 oz. lactose
12 oz. caramelized white cane sugar
14.5 AAU Columbus (1 oz. 14.5% AA pellets @ 60 min.)
9.2 AAU Chinook (.75 oz. 12.3% AA pellets @ 30 min.)
1/2 tsp. Irish moss @ 30 min.
1/2 tsp. yeast nutrient @ 5 min.
1 tsp. cardamom powder @ flame out
3 vanilla beans, split and seeds removed, added @ flame out, then removed after a 20 minute rest

Crushed grains are steeped for 30 min @ 155F.

WLP007 (Dry English Ale) or WY1028 (London Ale)

 

[DRonco]

I like this explanation....

http://manowarbrewing.com/2011/10/differences-between-lme-and-dme/

 

[Golddiggie]

Thanks for the replies. I gues the other thing that threw me is when a recipe calls for "9.9 lbs of LME" and ".5 lbs of DME"

I mean, they are essentially the same thing, no? One being liquid and another being dried. That's what made me wonder if I was reading the terms wrong.

Specifically:

That was probably due to LME often coming in 3.3# cans. So that would be three cans of LME and .5# of DME to get the OG.

BTW, Irish Moss is typically added at either 15 or 10 minutes from the end of the boil, not 30. Some do it at the 5 minute mark too. I would at least move it to 15 minutes from the end, if not 10. The recipe also has no flavor hops. The 30 minute addition will give you nothing for flavor/aroma and barely anything for bittering (not much of a contribution IMO). You really cannot taste bittering hops flavor, so you might as well just increase the main bittering hop addition to get all your IBUs (at 60 minutes).

 

[Calder]

LME and DME are essentially the same thing. However, there are more fermentables in DME. 1 lb DME = 1.25 lbs LME.

The reason the recipe calls for 9.9 lbs LME and 0.5 lbs DME is because the person who created the recipe used that. LME often comes in 3.3 lbs containers, so they obviously used 3 of them and added some DME.

0.5 lbs DME in a recipe makes almost no difference. Almost not worth the effort of opening the container. For reference, it equates to about .004 points on the OG in 5 gallons.

Most recipes will tell you what extract is used (Light, Pilsner, Extra-Light, Pale, Amber, or Dark). Whoever created this recipe, didn't do that, which is a mistake in my mind. In the absence of any information on the extract type, assume it is one of the lighter extracts (anything except for Amber or Dark).

 

[jrodder]

That was probably due to LME often coming in 3.3# cans. So that would be three cans of LME and .5# of DME to get the OG.

BTW, Irish Moss is typically added at either 15 or 10 minutes from the end of the boil, not 30. Some do it at the 5 minute mark too. I would at least move it to 15 minutes from the end, if not 10. The recipe also has no flavor hops. The 30 minute addition will give you nothing for flavor/aroma and barely anything for bittering (not much of a contribution IMO). You really cannot taste bittering hops flavor, so you might as well just increase the main bittering hop addition to get all your IBUs (at 60 minutes).

Okay, this makes sense now. I wasn't aware of the 3.3# container thing. This is for the Southern Tier Creme Bruleee stout, which honestly didn't have much IBU at all last time I had it.

If anyone happens to know a better clone recipe for it than the one I found here, I'm all ears. I can only do partial mash as of yet. Saving up money to complete the keggle BIAB setup.

 

[Calder]

9.9 lbs. LME
0.5 lbs. DME
1.5 lbs. 2-row pale malt
1.5 lbs. flaked barley
1.5 lbs. Belgian black malt
10 oz. lactose
12 oz. caramelized white cane sugar
14.5 AAU Columbus (1 oz. 14.5% AA pellets @ 60 min.)
9.2 AAU Chinook (.75 oz. 12.3% AA pellets @ 30 min.)
1/2 tsp. Irish moss @ 30 min.
1/2 tsp. yeast nutrient @ 5 min.
1 tsp. cardamom powder @ flame out
3 vanilla beans, split and seeds removed, added @ flame out, then removed after a 20 minute rest

Crushed grains are steeped for 30 min @ 155F.

WLP007 (Dry English Ale) or WY1028 (London Ale)


Is this recipe what you are planning to make. It seems to have a number of faults, and I don't think it will produce a very good beer.

- The extracts are not specified; assume light.
- IM added too early
- Hops don't seem to be well thought out.
- Grains need to be mashed, not steeped, otherwise you will not get anything from the barley or the pale malt. It is similar to steeping, but with less water.
- Mashing at 155 + extract will leave a lot of unfermentable sugars.
- Adding lactose seems pointless. I suspect it will be really sweet anyway.
- If you get decent conversion of the grains, the OG will be about 1.110. I think you would be really lucky to get it to finish below 1.030. That is a very sweet beer.
- Neither of those yeasts have particularly high alcohol tolerance. Even if the wort was very fermentable, both those yeasts could potentially stop due to the high alcohol, leaving a sweet beer.
- Most people add vanilla beans to the fermenter.

 

[Golddiggie]

Wyeast 1728 would be a better choice, since it goes to "approximately 12% ABV"... Which means, if you treat it right, it will go higher (from communications with Wyeast tech's).

Personally, I'd not use lactose or the cane sugar in the brew. There are better ways, IME, to get more caramel flavors. Such as C60 (or British Crystal II) malt.

I would also do a mini-mash for this since it includes 2 row malt. Mash for an hour, then proceed. You can do BIAB for this if you don't have a mash tun yet.

I would also make a starter for the batch and oxygenate really well. IF it does hit the mentioned estimated OG, you'll also want to oxygenate again 12-18 hours after pitching the yeast. To get it to do better. Adding more nutrient wouldn't be a bad idea either (1 tsp, instead of 1/2).

I add vanilla beans post ferment, so that the brew can age on them. You get very different things from the beans when heat is applied to them. Maybe that's what you want in this recipe.

 

[jrodder]

Awesome, thanks for the tips! One question though, regarding the sweetness. Have either of you had the Southern Tier Creme Brulee? It's cloyingly sweet, to the point some people have said they couldn't even finish the bottle. I have a bit of a sweet tooth, so a FG 1.03 for some being sweet, probably wouldn't as relatively sweet to me. I had my doubts about the recipe as well, so I might just convert an AG try, like this one:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/southern-tier-creme-brule-stout-clone-127932/

 

[Golddiggie]

I would brew it without the lactose and cane sugar. You can always add the lactose to the batch after it's done fermenting IF you need/want it in there. If you add it during the boil, then you're locked into what it does.

 

[jrodder]

Good point. Flexibility is paramount with this type of recipe. Thanks!