Protein Rest question

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OhioGrown

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I'm doing an American wheat beer tomorrow which involves 5 lbs of wheat, 1.5 of flaked wheat, 4 lbs of vienna, and a half lb. of honey malt. My question is, is there any benefit in just including the wheat malt and flaked wheat in the protein rest, and then adding the barley malts when I bring the temp up to mash? Or is it best to just include everything when you do the protein rest?
 

Bob

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I'm wondering why you'd bother with a protein rest. I've brewed countless wheat beers and never once done one.

Cheers,

Bob
 
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OhioGrown

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I don't know, I'd just like brew the best possible beer I can and the recipe called for it. That, and I'd like to expand my brewing experience some. You may have not done so in the past, but I 've heard of plenty of other people who do protein rests for wheat beers. If I'm really wasting my time here, please let me know why, I'm here to learn.
 

Mad_Milo

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From a cargill malt rep at probrewer.com...
...a protein rest may help somewhat if this is an option for you. Protein rests (really glucan rests) serve to decrease beta glucan content which results in a decrease in wort viscosity. In either case, only convert for as long as it takes to get starch negative. Sample a few places in the bed at first until you get comfortable with how your brewhouse and malt work.

Minimize recirc, but definitely do some vorlaufing before running to kettle. Your wort will be much too hazy otherwise.​

Just passing on information from Google.

I did a stepped infusion mash including a protein rest with a Kolsch recipe. It was my first AG, and all said and done it finished at a proper dryness, about 1.008. I think I can account the lower mashing and infusions for that.
 

brokenanchor

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Typically you'd want to do a protein rest if over 25% of your grain bill was undermodified malt, like your flaked wheat. Doing a rest with under 25% might lead to a more watery beer, because the rest of your malts are fully modified. Have at it if you want to try the technique, honestly it probably won't make much difference as Bob said
 

Bob

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There you go!

Protein rests serve several practical functions. The process which occurs during that rest reduces precursors that cause chill haze, decreases β-glucans (as stated above, reducing wort viscosity), and enhances foam retention.

As brokenanchor wrote, it's really only necessary if your grist meets one or both of two criteria: 1. More than a third of the grist is unmalted cereals; 2. Your pale malt is 6-row. Usually these two go hand in hand, as 6-row's higher levels of diastatic power permit the use of over 50% unmalted cereals in the grist. That leaves extremely high levels of protein which must be reduced.

Your grist qualifies for neither. You dig?

Bob
 

Coastarine

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I'm experimenting with doing a 133 protein rest on all of my beers to see how it affects foam stability. Ever since I heard that C papazian does that for all of his beers, I figured I'd give it a shot.

Often times people's questions on protein rests are interpreted as "do I NEED to do one". The way I see it, as bob explained, you usually don't need to do one, but that doesn't mean the beer won't benefit.
 

SpanishCastleAle

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Often times people's questions on protein rests are interpreted as "do I NEED to do one". The way I see it, as bob explained, you usually don't need to do one, but that doesn't mean the beer won't benefit.
+1. There are several knowledgable/experienced brewers who say it's not necessary and may hurt beer quality...but there are also several knowledgable/experienced brewers who often still do them. I started them just to try it and thought it helped many beers so I still do a short protein rest sometimes. However, I don't really do it for clarity. And it's very possible my 'protein rest' beers just happened to turn out better for other reasons. Still, I'm not 100% convinced either way...maybe I just like adding 'twists' to my brewing process.:)

But when I do a decoction for example...I no longer leave the main mash at the protein rest temp during all that time I'm converting/heating/boiling the decoction. At that length of time it does seem to hurt beer quality (using the malts I'm using).
 

snailsongs

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I am an AG noob, and I just brewed an oatmeal stout with 2 lbs of oats. I decided to try my hand at at protein rest to maximize the usage of the oats since my goal with this beer is to make it s-m-o-o-t-h as can be. It really wasn't that difficult, especially utilizing beersmith for my strike temp and step mash calculations. I mashed in at 122 for 25 minutes and then added enough boiling water to the mash to bring it up to 154.....I say go for it if you are in it to learn and practice like I am.....every brew is an experiment for me, and I have learned tons by trying different things as I go, and I've even produced a few damn good beers already in my 8-months as a brewer.
 

GoBrewers

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I've also heard that a protein rest can increase your efficiency because your team of converting enzymes are coming up to mash temp gradually rather than all at once.

So are there any down sides to always doing a protein rest? It seems to me that given the potential benefits in clarity, head retention and conversion, it might be a good thing to work into a standard brew- day protocol.
 

SpanishCastleAle

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Thing is...is that it doesn't always help head retention...it can hurt it too. It can also reduce body/mouthfeel which can be good or bad depending. It can increase efficiency. Just doing it out of protocol probably isn't the best approach.

Check out the 'Homebrew Myths' thread in the science forum...menschmachine gives some good info (even though my personal experience doesn't exactly agree with all of it...he knows his stuff and gives good explanation).
 

Bob

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So are there any down sides to always doing a protein rest? It seems to me that given the potential benefits in clarity, head retention and conversion, it might be a good thing to work into a standard brew- day protocol.
Not so much a down side to doing the rest, there is a downside to resting too long.

I generally perform the Fix 50/60/70 mash schedule, using infusions to raise the temperatures. Fix, Narziss et al recommend keeping the 50C rest 15 minutes or less if highly-modified malts are used.

That's crucial, so I'll say it again: Fix, Narziss et al recommend keeping the 50C rest 15 minutes or less if highly-modified malts are used.

Too long at this temperature permits too much of the foam (and haze) -enhancing proteins to be broken down. Yes your beer will be star-bright, but foam retention will be terrible.

I perform these rests for two reasons:

1. The 50C rest means I don't need to use 'foam-enhancing' specialty grains like wheat malt, flaked grains, or CaraPils. I can fine-tune foam formation and retention and finished-beer clarity with one technique.

2. The 60 and 70C rests permit me to fine-tune my ferment. Here's Fix on the subject:

The ADF* is greatly influenced by the times spent at 60 and 70C. E.g., 15 mins. at 60 followed by 45 mins at 70 will typically drop the ADF into the low 70s**. The reverse will increase it into the mid 80s.
Note that the above is in reference to Fix's 'house' ale yeast. His experience told him how his yeast metabolized maltotriose, and those rests have a profound impact on the maltose/maltotriose ratio. I've found that my house ale yeast - Nottingham - is affected by those rests and rations as well.

This is important when formulating beers like IPA, where you want the beer to be dry, or Scottish Ales, where the result should be malty-sweet. Flip the 60/70 rest times for either result instead of adding specialty grains or sugars.

Plus it really gives you something to crow about at the next homebrew club meeting. Even though it's not an advanced technique at all, people are really impressed by step mashing. I mean, how hard is it to add boiling liquor to the mash? :? I've found that I get perfect results using my countertop tea boiler - it's got graduations on the side and can bring enough liquor to a boil in a very short period of time. (Of course, I do 2.5-3 gallon batches. You 10-gallon boys might need a different plan!)

Take up the gauntlet. Simplify your grists and step mash!

Regards,

Bob

* ADF = Apparent Degree of Fermentation
** in percentages
 

dstar26t

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NQ3X,

Apparent Degree of Fermentation = Attenuation?

I regularly get 75% attenuation with WLP001 when I mash for 90 min @ 150F for IPAs (I make a lot of them). I've been using corn sugar to increase attenuation to 80%+. If I instead step mash @ 140 for 30 min and 158 for 30 mins, I'll expect the same or more attenuation? Or even go to 45 min @ 140 and 15 min @ 158? I'm not too worried about the protein rest right now. One "step" at a time.
 

Mad_Milo

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Bob/NQ3X,

Just trying to wrap my n00b head around this...
You're saying a 3-step mash is ideal, with total duration of 1h 15m?

Essentially the steps (for a drier beer) are:
1. Mash in for 15m @ 150°F
2. Convert for 15m @ 160°F
3. Mash out for 45m @170°F

For a maltier/fuller body beer we would convert at 160 for 45m, with a 15m mash out.

This jives with what I've learned about lower temps = drier beers, and it's inverse. I just question that 45 minutes at 170. Seems a bit high and long.

But then, I've only brewed 3 AG batches so far, with varying styles and techniques - Kolsch (4-step), IPA (low-mid temp single infusion), and a scottish (mid-high temp single infusion). So far the first two hit style and expectations. The scottish is still clearing in the secondary.

I look forward to more info, this has been very interesting so far.
 

SpanishCastleAle

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If you get your mash to 160 F it should convert in 10-15 minutes or even less. My decoctions are usually converted at 158 F after only 10-15 minutes. At that high of a temp the alpha-amylase is working pretty fast and converts very quickly...and makes for a wort high in unfermentables (i.e. NOT dry).

I'd love to hear the reasoning for staying at 170 F for 45 minutes.

If you want a drier beer I would convert everything at 150 F or lower (15 minutes isn't long enough...the beta-amylase is working relatively slowly at that temp). Then mash out near 170 but no need to hold it there.
 

Bob

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NQ3X,

Apparent Degree of Fermentation = Attenuation?

I regularly get 75% attenuation with WLP001 when I mash for 90 min @ 150F for IPAs (I make a lot of them). I've been using corn sugar to increase attenuation to 80%+. If I instead step mash @ 140 for 30 min and 158 for 30 mins, I'll expect the same or more attenuation? Or even go to 45 min @ 140 and 15 min @ 158? I'm not too worried about the protein rest right now. One "step" at a time.
The final result will depend on your yeast. As I noted above, Fix's results are predicated on using the same yeast, gathering empirical evidence. My results are comparable to his. Yours may be wildly different. The only way to know for sure is to experiment.

madmilo said:
Essentially the steps (for a drier beer) are:
1. Mash in for 15m @ 150°F
2. Convert for 15m @ 160°F
3. Mash out for 45m @170°F
Hold on, pardner. You're converted to Fahrenheit by just adding a '1' before the numbers. The steps are in Celsius. That's what that capital letter 'C' means. Try converting 50/60/70 Celsius to Fahrenheit. Then think it through again. ;)

I'm going to bold this, not because I think anyone's an idiot, but because it's really, really important:

The 50/60/70 CELSIUS rest schedule is not a magic bullet. You will have to work in your brewery to arrive at definitive conclusions.

Good night, and good luck! :D

Bob
 

Mad_Milo

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Hold on, pardner. You're converted to Fahrenheit by just adding a '1' before the numbers. The steps are in Celsius. That's what that capital letter 'C' means. Try converting 50/60/70 Celsius to Fahrenheit. Then think it through again. ;)
Ahhh HAA!

122°F / 140°F / 158°F makes much more sense. Thanks for straightening me out there, hoss.

I ASSumed that you were writing shorthand, and didn't even notice the "C."
Dammit, I can't even blame it on beer. :drunk:
 

dstar26t

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"The 50/60/70 CELSIUS rest schedule is not a magic bullet. You will have to work in your brewery to arrive at definitive conclusions."

More work? Thanks a lot.
(no really, thanks:mug:)
 

Bob

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Yeah, I mean, Gawd. I can see the horribleness now.

"Aw, rats, honey; in order to brew the best possible beer, I have to brew more."

Ain't that a shame? :D

Bob
 

Bob

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Maybe not so quick, because I don't know what you mean.

You dough in with all the grain and with strike liquor amount and temperature calculated to hit your initial rest temperature. You don't dough in with the malt in one tun and the non-malt in another.

There is an alternate method, where you dough in with the malt only and use the adjunct grains to act as a temperature-rise 'brake', but that's a layer of complication I'd rather not add. :D

Bob
 

BittererPlease

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okie dokie
thanks
PS sorry for the lack of clarity. I asked the question because in the next thing I am trying, 50% of the grains is wheat flakes, so I was not sure if I should protein rest the flakes then add the rest of the grains after said rest and then bumb the temp up to the 155 range.

Sorry for the run on sentence
 
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