Dfitz
Well-Known Member
I would guess once you get up past 1/2 BBL you'd want to ferment in one vessel rather than several 5-7 gal buckets.
Pro & Cons of Conicals
- Thread starter swampbrewcrew
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Great discussion guys. I happen to be somewhat of an authority on the subject. First and foremost I am a partner with Minibrew, therefore I accept that my opinion may be seen as biast. However before I partnered with Minibrew.com, I had done some extensive testing with buckets, glass, and conicals. Long story short, there is an almost neglegable variance between the end product. The few exceptions are clearity of the beer, fermentation time, and easy of yeast reclamation.
Clearity: This has more to due with the lack of turbulence when racking. With our conicals you rack from above the yeast cake. Now you can do the same with a siphone however, your chances of grabbing some yeast and trub are increased.
Fermentation: My side by side tests showed Fermentation times are quicker with our conicals compared to buckets and competing products such as Fast Ferment. I believe this to be due to two factors. 1. The pitch of the minibrew is optimal for yeast convection during the active phase. 2. More yeast have phisical access to the wort since everything is in one chamber, like a bucket.
Reuse of yeast: Collecting yeast with a conical is super easy. Open a sterilized vessel (I use a small ball jar) turn the valve and cap it. Done. We have an additional advantage that we do not reintroduce and O2 back into the beer when opening the valve. To me this is a huge cost saver as yeast is one of the most expensive parts of a brew day. $$$
Stainless vs Plastic:
Stainless is great, it truly is the standard for big beer. However it's expensive, and if you scratch it you may need to re capacitae it. With HDPE it's inexpensive and if you scratch it, you simply cut off any excess material left from the scratch. It's a bit lighter and has a better R value.
Clearity: This has more to due with the lack of turbulence when racking. With our conicals you rack from above the yeast cake. Now you can do the same with a siphone however, your chances of grabbing some yeast and trub are increased.
Fermentation: My side by side tests showed Fermentation times are quicker with our conicals compared to buckets and competing products such as Fast Ferment. I believe this to be due to two factors. 1. The pitch of the minibrew is optimal for yeast convection during the active phase. 2. More yeast have phisical access to the wort since everything is in one chamber, like a bucket.
Reuse of yeast: Collecting yeast with a conical is super easy. Open a sterilized vessel (I use a small ball jar) turn the valve and cap it. Done. We have an additional advantage that we do not reintroduce and O2 back into the beer when opening the valve. To me this is a huge cost saver as yeast is one of the most expensive parts of a brew day. $$$
Stainless vs Plastic:
Stainless is great, it truly is the standard for big beer. However it's expensive, and if you scratch it you may need to re capacitae it. With HDPE it's inexpensive and if you scratch it, you simply cut off any excess material left from the scratch. It's a bit lighter and has a better R value.
Till you have a batch that gets oxidized and have to dump the last remaining bottles. Yes, it's real and does happen. Yes, I speak from personal experience.
MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
Really? Because that's exactly what it seems like you're doing. You're telling me you've never tasted a stale beer that's been sitting out for an hour or two?
If you're really that sheltered from oxygenated beer, it's not hard to reproduce. Pour a beer, let it sit out for a while, then come back and taste it (compare it to a freshly poured beer). It's not only noticeable, it's overwhelming.
MidAtlanticBrew
Well-Known Member
on oxidation, C'mon man, drink a beer out of a growler then cap and refrigerate and drink the rest 2 days later. The beer will not be the same, not even close, it will usually suck.
Yeast harvest can be done with virtual any fermentation vessel. The conical makes it easier and produces a cleaner yeast with more viability and desireable characteristics since you can take the "middle cut" without the trub and early dead, and also without the low floculators of the late cut. That said, I also have SS buckets as well and I use Braufessor's harvest technique very successfully.
Yeast harvest can be done with virtual any fermentation vessel. The conical makes it easier and produces a cleaner yeast with more viability and desireable characteristics since you can take the "middle cut" without the trub and early dead, and also without the low floculators of the late cut. That said, I also have SS buckets as well and I use Braufessor's harvest technique very successfully.
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MNBones
Member
I find my conical helps me make better beer, but its mostly because it changed my process.
1.) Dumping sediment that made it from the boil kettle. I attach a sight glass to my dump valve and dump the sediment that settles out an hour after transferring from the boil kettle, then add my yeast. (Yes, Irish Moss and a whirlpool are supposed to take care of that, but my technique apparently needs some work, especially with highly hopped beers)
2.) Dumping trub after primary fermentation so I can avoid transferring to a secondary.
3.) Sample valve makes it quick, easy, and sanitary to check on progress so I actually DO take readings instead of guessing.
4.) Cleanup is a breeze (since I bought a spray ball and pump).
But I think the biggest factor is the internal temperature control coil in my fermenter. Being able to hold the fermentation temperature to within the yeasts' range (especially during aggressive primary on high gravity brews) eliminates the undesirable temperature related flavor artifacts and the subsequent huge blow-offs I would get from letting the fermentation temperature get out of hand.
I also use the coil to cold crash when the beer is done so I can transfer clearer beer to the kegs.
1.) Dumping sediment that made it from the boil kettle. I attach a sight glass to my dump valve and dump the sediment that settles out an hour after transferring from the boil kettle, then add my yeast. (Yes, Irish Moss and a whirlpool are supposed to take care of that, but my technique apparently needs some work, especially with highly hopped beers)
2.) Dumping trub after primary fermentation so I can avoid transferring to a secondary.
3.) Sample valve makes it quick, easy, and sanitary to check on progress so I actually DO take readings instead of guessing.
4.) Cleanup is a breeze (since I bought a spray ball and pump).
But I think the biggest factor is the internal temperature control coil in my fermenter. Being able to hold the fermentation temperature to within the yeasts' range (especially during aggressive primary on high gravity brews) eliminates the undesirable temperature related flavor artifacts and the subsequent huge blow-offs I would get from letting the fermentation temperature get out of hand.
I also use the coil to cold crash when the beer is done so I can transfer clearer beer to the kegs.
MagicMatt
Brewmathemagician
adamyoung
Well-Known Member
I think it's easier to get better beer from a stainless conical - it doesn't magically make your beer better if bad habits abound, but if you leverage its advantages like the following, the sum of the small improvements in brewing make better beer more likely more consistently:
- stainless steel much less prone to harboring remnants from previous batches/uncleanliness - this is particularly true after several uses as the metal won't develop imperfections/scratches/etc. as rapidly that make that an increasing possibility
- because of ability to dump trub, you can use one vessel for entire fermentation and pre-packaging conditioning which means less exposure to outside air or other contaminants (that is, if you are introducing CO2 to replace air volume lost when trub leaves the dump valve) from eliminating racking to secondary and also allowing direct transfer to keg in closed fashion (if you keg your finished beer)
- racking arm/valve allow sampling to monitor gravity, clarity, flavor, aroma, pH, etc. to better monitor fermentation
- it could just be me, but even when I've done CIP on my plastic buckets, I still smell a distinct aroma of yeast and/or hops (degrees on both depend on what was just in there) for a while afterward. I don't have that with my stainless conical, and it begs the question how much that contributes to the next beer
- some say 2nd and 3rd generations of yeast can be more viable/virile than the initial pitch when harvested properly (i.e. from the middle third of the cone at optimal times), possibly because of selecting yeast with best floc profile and other desirable traits - conical makes it possible to more deliberately harvest the particular layer of yeast to try and achieve this
- does prep you to work on pro equipment if you find you want to take the hobby further...possibly professional. I'm not sure if this is a thing, but I'm guessing people are also more inclined to buy a used stainless fermenter than a plastic one because of sanitation and durability concerns (edit - this "pro" doesn't relate to making better beer, necessarily)
Having said all that, I do still brew in my plastic buckets fairly often since they fit in my temp control keezer, and I've brewed pretty decent beers in them.
- stainless steel much less prone to harboring remnants from previous batches/uncleanliness - this is particularly true after several uses as the metal won't develop imperfections/scratches/etc. as rapidly that make that an increasing possibility
- because of ability to dump trub, you can use one vessel for entire fermentation and pre-packaging conditioning which means less exposure to outside air or other contaminants (that is, if you are introducing CO2 to replace air volume lost when trub leaves the dump valve) from eliminating racking to secondary and also allowing direct transfer to keg in closed fashion (if you keg your finished beer)
- racking arm/valve allow sampling to monitor gravity, clarity, flavor, aroma, pH, etc. to better monitor fermentation
- it could just be me, but even when I've done CIP on my plastic buckets, I still smell a distinct aroma of yeast and/or hops (degrees on both depend on what was just in there) for a while afterward. I don't have that with my stainless conical, and it begs the question how much that contributes to the next beer
- some say 2nd and 3rd generations of yeast can be more viable/virile than the initial pitch when harvested properly (i.e. from the middle third of the cone at optimal times), possibly because of selecting yeast with best floc profile and other desirable traits - conical makes it possible to more deliberately harvest the particular layer of yeast to try and achieve this
- does prep you to work on pro equipment if you find you want to take the hobby further...possibly professional. I'm not sure if this is a thing, but I'm guessing people are also more inclined to buy a used stainless fermenter than a plastic one because of sanitation and durability concerns (edit - this "pro" doesn't relate to making better beer, necessarily)
Having said all that, I do still brew in my plastic buckets fairly often since they fit in my temp control keezer, and I've brewed pretty decent beers in them.
skraeling
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congrats on winning the thread I guess.
I purge my kegs just saying. Do I go to the absolute ass end extreme that some people do lol no.
its not that it will make better beer automatically but that it CAN in my opinion. Why is almost everything food related worth a damn stainless?
I purge my kegs just saying. Do I go to the absolute ass end extreme that some people do lol no.
its not that it will make better beer automatically but that it CAN in my opinion. Why is almost everything food related worth a damn stainless?
I went the middle road with chapman stainless fermenters, which are really just stainless buckets. I have the 14 gallon one, and am quite happy with it. I hope to get another so I can do two batches simultaneously. Right now I still have to use my plastic buckets if I want to brew more often.
I went this route because I was retiring some of my buckets, and was looking at alternatives. I didn't want to pay the cash for the conicals or even some of the more expensive stainless bucket style, and then found the chapman. I've also seen some modifications to use triclamp fittings for racking and CO2 transfers that I'm considering for the future.
I think the chapman stainless fermenters are a great deal, though they have been creeping up the cost the past year. Even with those cost increases, their 14 gallon fermenter is still the best deal out there that I've found.
I might eventually go for a conical in the future if I save enough money, but I really am quite happy with the chapman stainless bucket style.
I went this route because I was retiring some of my buckets, and was looking at alternatives. I didn't want to pay the cash for the conicals or even some of the more expensive stainless bucket style, and then found the chapman. I've also seen some modifications to use triclamp fittings for racking and CO2 transfers that I'm considering for the future.
I think the chapman stainless fermenters are a great deal, though they have been creeping up the cost the past year. Even with those cost increases, their 14 gallon fermenter is still the best deal out there that I've found.
I might eventually go for a conical in the future if I save enough money, but I really am quite happy with the chapman stainless bucket style.
beerman1957
Well-Known Member
The thing about conicals is the fact you can get the dead yeast off the trub and avoid off-flavors dead yeast can give. A SS conical will last a lifetime unless you purposely drop it. If I were to recommend ONE single item in a brewery, it would be an SS conical. Nothing else compares to the ease of use, durability, quality of beer and overall coolness factor. I have NEVER regretted spending money on my SS conical.
OP
OP
swampbrewcrew
Well-Known Member
I generally only use a secondary if I'm going to bulk age a batch for awhile, or it's one I plan on entering into a competition. Removing the trub would be awesome and I would probably do it if I didn't have to clean and sanitize everything to do a transfer.
D
dpinsent
Guest
I purchased a FastFerment conical fermenter and really don't see any advantage over buckets. You have to tape up every part that has a thread and when you're brewing you best make sure you use hop bags or at least strain out all the hops when pouring into the fermenter.
If you use liquid yeast, they're supposed to be quite handy in the harvesting. I wouldn't know because I only ever use dry Safale-US 05 yeast and never bother harvesting. The bottling is a little bit easier. There's no racking necessary however if you bottle condition, be careful not to stir up too much sediment when adding the priming solution.
If you use liquid yeast, they're supposed to be quite handy in the harvesting. I wouldn't know because I only ever use dry Safale-US 05 yeast and never bother harvesting. The bottling is a little bit easier. There's no racking necessary however if you bottle condition, be careful not to stir up too much sediment when adding the priming solution.
YES YOU CAN! I absolutely LOVE mine!
The 1 thing that I like about the conical is the ability to CIP! 1-2 gallon of PBW connect and turn on the pump and walk away. Same with the Star San. Run the CIP through the plate chiller through the CIP spray head and back to the pump via gravity! I LOVE this system! Almost as much as I love fermenting in a sanke keg
Cheers
Jay
Stainless has substantial advantage over plastic and glass. Plastic has higher oxygen permeability (I don't think that really matters though) and plastic is more easily scarred and can harbor infections. Glass is plainly a hazard to your health if it breaks.
I've had a Blichmann conical for over a decade, but if I were to be in the market again, I'd get one of those SS Brew Buckets. While you can waste trub and harvest yeast with my conical, I never do. Doing that means that more beer is left in the cone. So, I keep my cone full of yeast and trub and recover that beer.
Not harvesting yeast through the bottom valve is not that big a deal. I can go in through the top of the fermenter and scoop out the slurry I want.
Not having the bottom valve and having a big top lid in the Brew Bucket means that it would meet everything I need in my brewing methods.
Final word: a conical or stainless steel vessel will not make better beer...but they still have advantages.
I've had a Blichmann conical for over a decade, but if I were to be in the market again, I'd get one of those SS Brew Buckets. While you can waste trub and harvest yeast with my conical, I never do. Doing that means that more beer is left in the cone. So, I keep my cone full of yeast and trub and recover that beer.
Not harvesting yeast through the bottom valve is not that big a deal. I can go in through the top of the fermenter and scoop out the slurry I want.
Not having the bottom valve and having a big top lid in the Brew Bucket means that it would meet everything I need in my brewing methods.
Final word: a conical or stainless steel vessel will not make better beer...but they still have advantages.
MidAtlanticBrew
Well-Known Member
I ferment in stainless only but I don't believe for a minute that it makes a significant difference vs plastic in oxidation. During fermentation, active yeast consume O2 and post FG, I'm transfering my beer pretty quickly. The O2 permeation rate of the plastic isn't that high. Maybe a different story with prolonged residence in plastic.
I firmly believe that improper cold crash, without a seal or CO2 blanket, is a major cause of oxidation, no matter the fermentation material. I've been unfortunate enough (read stupid or forgetful) to run an inadvertant side by side experiment in a split 10 gallon batch in 5 gallon SS primaries. Cold crashing both and forgeting to seal one led to no difference until 2 weeks after tapping with significant difference at 5 week leading to the last gallon or so of the mistake beer getting dumped.
Many homebrewer in an effort to progress, incorporate a cold crash without proper equipment and technique. Clears the beer quicker but sacrifices it's shelf life. Consumed quickly, all is good. But for shelf life, elevate technique.
I firmly believe that improper cold crash, without a seal or CO2 blanket, is a major cause of oxidation, no matter the fermentation material. I've been unfortunate enough (read stupid or forgetful) to run an inadvertant side by side experiment in a split 10 gallon batch in 5 gallon SS primaries. Cold crashing both and forgeting to seal one led to no difference until 2 weeks after tapping with significant difference at 5 week leading to the last gallon or so of the mistake beer getting dumped.
Many homebrewer in an effort to progress, incorporate a cold crash without proper equipment and technique. Clears the beer quicker but sacrifices it's shelf life. Consumed quickly, all is good. But for shelf life, elevate technique.
Seems all the pros and cons have been amply covered in this thread. But still hard to sort it all out. If I had to list one reason I prefer my FastFerment conicals over the glass carboys I used to use, it would be . . .
Safety - I always feared lifting or moving a glass carboy. And after I found out some carboys (the cheaper ones?) have super thin spots that you might not know of that can make the carboy very weak, I decided to get away from glass. One homebrewer on this site got cut bad when one broke in his arms. I thought about PET carboys, but now I really like the conicals for all of the reasons others have noted (in addition to safety).
I use two of the 5 gallon conicals for my 10 gallon batches and have the conicals mounted on the wall. They are a bit cumbersome to lift and place there, but at least I don't have to worry about breakage.
For moving them around, I made the little cart in the attached picture:
Safety - I always feared lifting or moving a glass carboy. And after I found out some carboys (the cheaper ones?) have super thin spots that you might not know of that can make the carboy very weak, I decided to get away from glass. One homebrewer on this site got cut bad when one broke in his arms. I thought about PET carboys, but now I really like the conicals for all of the reasons others have noted (in addition to safety).
I use two of the 5 gallon conicals for my 10 gallon batches and have the conicals mounted on the wall. They are a bit cumbersome to lift and place there, but at least I don't have to worry about breakage.
For moving them around, I made the little cart in the attached picture:
If you think moving to a Coni is just about "cool looks", then think again!
I went from glass carboys, to now 2-14 gallon and 1-7 gallon Ss Conicals. I will never EVER go back to buckets or carboys.
1) Yeast harvesting. You will be hard pressed to ferment any big beers, or Lagers, with stepping up a vial or two. The yeast collected with the use of a Sight Glass at the bottom will kick off a 12% ABV Lager or mega beer in hours!
2) Conicals do not break ! Glass and plastic, good luck!
3) Easy to install a cooling coil for Lagers and Heat Tape around the outside. The coil temp. exchanger is an accessory, but well worth it. I circulate cold water from a corn-keg stored in a converted freezer to cooler, with a $20 submersable magnetic drive pump found on Amazon with a compatable 110 vac to D.C. plug in transformer $9.90. FermWrap is one name of heat tape, but there are other "reptile" heat-tape suppliers, so look around.
4) Easy to move around your brewery with the use of caster wheels on the legs. If it gets a little wobbly, then put some uni-strut "outriggers" on the bottom legs and casters about 6 inches out.
5) Easy to clean by hand, NOT bent brushes and pain in the azz, tipping heavy glass upside down or plastic etching.
6) Accurate temp monitoring through the thermowell, NOT a strap on, hope its themp inside is what it reads outside.....
7) Easy to transfer the beer to bright beer kegs or other. Use CO2 or Nitrogen to push the beer out with about 3 p.s.i. A LOT easier then putting your lips on a hose and trying to siphon the presious liquid out !
8) Very easy to oxygenate through the tri-clamp opening on the top.
9) Much better trub, yeast, and spent hop seperation, due to the conical bottom
10) They look damn awesome, even if the beer inside sucks!
I could keep thinking of more reasons to make the move, but I am out of time......I am building a new Brewery - Bloombrews II, with a walk in cooler, and need to get busy!
I went from glass carboys, to now 2-14 gallon and 1-7 gallon Ss Conicals. I will never EVER go back to buckets or carboys.
1) Yeast harvesting. You will be hard pressed to ferment any big beers, or Lagers, with stepping up a vial or two. The yeast collected with the use of a Sight Glass at the bottom will kick off a 12% ABV Lager or mega beer in hours!
2) Conicals do not break ! Glass and plastic, good luck!
3) Easy to install a cooling coil for Lagers and Heat Tape around the outside. The coil temp. exchanger is an accessory, but well worth it. I circulate cold water from a corn-keg stored in a converted freezer to cooler, with a $20 submersable magnetic drive pump found on Amazon with a compatable 110 vac to D.C. plug in transformer $9.90. FermWrap is one name of heat tape, but there are other "reptile" heat-tape suppliers, so look around.
4) Easy to move around your brewery with the use of caster wheels on the legs. If it gets a little wobbly, then put some uni-strut "outriggers" on the bottom legs and casters about 6 inches out.
5) Easy to clean by hand, NOT bent brushes and pain in the azz, tipping heavy glass upside down or plastic etching.
6) Accurate temp monitoring through the thermowell, NOT a strap on, hope its themp inside is what it reads outside.....
7) Easy to transfer the beer to bright beer kegs or other. Use CO2 or Nitrogen to push the beer out with about 3 p.s.i. A LOT easier then putting your lips on a hose and trying to siphon the presious liquid out !
8) Very easy to oxygenate through the tri-clamp opening on the top.
9) Much better trub, yeast, and spent hop seperation, due to the conical bottom
10) They look damn awesome, even if the beer inside sucks!
I could keep thinking of more reasons to make the move, but I am out of time......I am building a new Brewery - Bloombrews II, with a walk in cooler, and need to get busy!
I have a few observations from the few times I've used a conical. I have one of the PTFE models the Northern Brewer sells. It has a thermometer well that was tough to seal. It took LOTS of Teflon tape to keep it from leaking wort all down the side. Big advantage is that there's just less work involved. Going from primary to secondary is closing the valve and removing the flask. That's it. No siphoning, cleaning up the carboys, sanitizing everything again. My fermenter has a large hose that connects to the bottom to transfer to your bottling bucket. I've had problems with the valve blocking. I had a recipe with oak chips and sank and blocked the valve. My last batch was dry hopped, and the valve plugged up again. Otherwise, I'm pleased.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I've read all 52 posts and cant find a real reason to spend the money on one or I would. Except the cool factor that doesn't interest me.
Cleaning buckets is stupid easy.
Racking off the yeast cake after a cold crash in a bucket sucks up no yeast unless I suck up every drop and even then its basically nothing.
I been using the same $12 buckets for 2 years AND clean with the abrasive side of a kitchen sponge with no infections.
Conicals seem way harder to lift out of the ferm chamber then a bucket
My beer on tap now was cold crashing for ten days and I never snapped the lid closed on the bucket and its an awesomely smooth beer with no perceived oxidation.
I would think Long term storage and oxidation would be were they shine but who wants to tie up there conical for months. Even then I would rack to a keg purge and store...so I wouldn't need one anyway.
So again...My thinking is its a cool factor
Cleaning buckets is stupid easy.
Racking off the yeast cake after a cold crash in a bucket sucks up no yeast unless I suck up every drop and even then its basically nothing.
I been using the same $12 buckets for 2 years AND clean with the abrasive side of a kitchen sponge with no infections.
Conicals seem way harder to lift out of the ferm chamber then a bucket
My beer on tap now was cold crashing for ten days and I never snapped the lid closed on the bucket and its an awesomely smooth beer with no perceived oxidation.
I would think Long term storage and oxidation would be were they shine but who wants to tie up there conical for months. Even then I would rack to a keg purge and store...so I wouldn't need one anyway.
So again...My thinking is its a cool factor
First time in a long time anyone has called me cool!
I totally hear ya man! I used buckets for 14 years! Liked just about everything about them. I needed some cool factor in my brewery since I hadn't done an upgrade in YEARS!
Cheers
Jay
