PNW Cider fall 2018, pics and journal

[Corey Fish]

Hey there! For those who are interested, I wanted to chronicle our cidermaking from our trees this year. We moved into an old farmhouse (built c. 1900) 4 years ago. Our trees tend to bear every other year, and this is one of our "on" years.

We have two trees, that I've identified as Mcintosh and Golden Delicious. I have a source for transcendence crab apples and plan on modifying both tannin and acid levels to really make a good product this year.

Here's a few shots of our trees and the apple haul, which was hard to fit into one frame. We decided to throw out "rotten" apples but keep apples that had coddling moth damage, since we have a real issue with that at our house.

This was from our harvest this weekend. We're renting a big cider press in 2 weeks so plan is to let the apples sit and "sweat" in our cool dark basement for that 2 week period.

Yes I know my basement is messy.

Updates in a couple of weeks from pressing day!

 

[Chalkyt]

I notice that you have something wrapped around the trunk of a tree. Is this some sort of barrier against Coddling Moth larvae (which I understand come out of the ground)?

We have a similar problem that requires quartering the apples and cutting out the affected bits... all a bit time consuming. Any advice about how to eliminate (or at least reduce) this pest is welcome.

BTW good looking trees. We are on an old property and have something similar... a big old "something" (we think it is some sort of Pippin), Pomme de Neige, and Red Delicious. The best cider this year was a combination of these with some Pink Ladies thrown in, all with WLP773. Have fun!

 

[Corey Fish]

I notice that you have something wrapped around the trunk of a tree. Is this some sort of barrier against Coddling Moth larvae (which I understand come out of the ground)?

We have a similar problem that requires quartering the apples and cutting out the affected bits... all a bit time consuming. Any advice about how to eliminate (or at least reduce) this pest is welcome.

BTW good looking trees. We are on an old property and have something similar... a big old "something" (we think it is some sort of Pippin), Pomme de Neige, and Red Delicious. The best cider this year was a combination of these with some Pink Ladies thrown in, all with WLP773. Have fun!

Thanks! Coddling moths lay their eggs on apples or nearby leaves, the larva burrows into the apple, then emerges and pupates nearby, usually in the bark of the trunk or in our case a wood fence with many small nooks and crannies. The bands are just corrugated cardboard with the thought that the last emerging larva will decide to make a home in or under the cardboard at which point this winter (while they are overwintering) the cardboard can be removed and destroyed. Next year we plan to use a combination of pheromone traps, trichogamma wasps (which parasitize the coddling moth eggs) and Captain's Jack's Organic Dead Bug spray.

 

[Corey Fish]

Ok! Pressing day is in the books. All told we got 44 gallons of cider from 2 trees. Sulfited everything except for two gallons I’m letting go completely natural.

Batches as follows:

1. 3.5 gallons Macintosh, 2.5 gallons golden delicious, 1 gallon crabapple
Sulfite at hour 0, pectic at hour 12, m2 wine yeast pitched dry at 24 hours
4 pounds frozen Pinot Noir grapes and 50g dried hibiscus petals added to juice in a grain bag
Brix 12, chaptalized to 15 with turbinado. pH 3.4

2. 3 gallons Mac, 2 gallons golden, 1 gallon crab
Sulfite and pectic as above. Nottingham.
Brix 11, no sugar. pH 3.4

3. 3 gallons Mac, 3 gallons golden
Sulfite and pectic as above. WLP775 English Cider Yeast.
Brix 11, no sugar. pH 3.4

4. 3 gallons Mac
Sulfite and pectic as above. M2 wine yeast pitched dry.
Brix 11, no sugar. pH3.4

5. 4.5 gallons Golden
Same as above but WLP775 added at 48 hours (ran out of yeast!)

6. 3 gallons Mac, 3 gallons golden.
As above but added 11 oz dried whole mission figs, 2 vanilla beans, and 2 cinnamon sticks (additions soaked overnight in buffalo trace bourbon)
Brix 11, chaptalize to 15 with turbinado.
Plan for this will be to soak 1-2 oz oak cubes that have been soaked in the bourbon/vanilla/cinnamon liquor and rack onto the liquor/cubes for a month or so

7. 3 gallons Mac, 2 gallons golden
Same sulfite and pectic routine. Imperial G03 Dieter German Ale yeast
Brix 11, pH 3.4
No sugar.

8. 1 gallon Mac, natural ferment
9. 1 gallon golden, natural ferment

10. A buddy took 5 gal to ferment using Nottingham.

Fermentation appears to have happily started on everything. I’ll be adding yeast nutrient (Fermaid O) to the juice today or tomorrow. Enjoy the pics!

 

[Jhoss]

Looking forward to the taste test and which one rises to the top!

 

[bmd2k1]

Awesome! Best of luck & keep us posted [emoji111]

 

[bmd2k1]

What kinda SGs ya starting with on those?

 

[Corey Fish]

What kinda SGs ya starting with on those?

I typically measure brix at the start just cause it's easier with this many batches than taking an SG reading on each. Brix was coming in pretty consistently between 11-12, so that would convert to a SG of 1.044 and 1.048. The two batches I chaptalized were brix 15 after sugar, which is 1.06

 

[MarkKF]

Dare I ask why it’s easier to measure brix than specific gravity? My hydrometer has both scales on it.

 

[Corey Fish]

Dare I ask why it’s easier to measure brix than specific gravity? My hydrometer has both scales on it.

Of course you can ask! I have a brix refractometer: I sterilize the pipette, crack the lid or go through the stopper hole, grab a couple drops, put them on the meter and look. Quick sanitize and I'm onto the next. Plus it just takes a few drops instead of loading up a whole 150mL in a graduated cylinder. I tested all 9 of my batches in under 10 minutes.

 

[Corey Fish]

Update: all yeasts happily fermenting. The M2 yeast in the 7 gallon batch of rosé cider took the longest to show signs of fermentation at 60 hours. However, due to the fact I was using frozen Pinot noir grapes, my must temp was 49 when I pitched. Oops. I fed the yeast with fermiad O at 48 h post pitch and stuck a heating pad on my fermenter for a bit.

The batch I used the Imperial Dieter created a HUGE Krausen which bubbled up in to the airlock but not a blowout.

The only other interesting thing is that the batch I am fermenting with figs, cinnamon sticks, and vanilla beans is turning a lovely shade of walnut brown. Between the two pounds of turbinado I added and the sugar from 3/4 of a pound of dried figs, should be pretty potent.

My early thoughts are to bottle the fig, vanilla, cinnamon, bourbon batch as a semi dry still cider using k meta and sorbate.

The rosé batch I’m planning on racking onto 1-2 ounces of medium toast American oak cubes for 4-6 weeks followed by bottling in champagne bottles with crowns at 4 volumes of CO2.

Thoughts?

It’s been about a week since pitch. Racking in another week or so to secondary.

 

[madscientist451]

My early thoughts are to bottle the fig, vanilla, cinnamon, bourbon batch as a semi dry still cider using k meta and sorbate.



Thoughts?

It’s been about a week since pitch. Racking in another week or so to secondary.

Discard any pre-conceived schedule, when primary is done, let it sit and settle for a while.

You may be better off letting the fig, vanilla and cinnamon cider finish on its own and then taste it before you decide what to do next. It may need some sweetening, it may need to be blended with a plain cider, it might be lacking in bourbon character or it might be great as it is.

 

[Corey Fish]

Discard any pre-conceived schedule, when primary is done, let it sit and settle for a while.

You may be better off letting the fig, vanilla and cinnamon cider finish on its own and then taste it before you decide what to do next. It may need some sweetening, it may need to be blended with a plain cider, it might be lacking in bourbon character or it might be great as it is.

That’s good advice! I guess I’m never sure about the whole gross lees thing. I’ve seen some advise to get it off ASAP and some say it’s fine. Unfortunately no data that I can find to drive the decision making process but seems reasonable to do as you suggest.

 

[Corey Fish]

Update: Racked to secondary after fermentation complete. Ended up racking over 3 days due to the volume. Everything is clearing nicely with the exception of the fig, cinnamon, vanilla batch which is still fermenting a bit. It occurs to me that I don’t hav a great way of figuring out th OG of this batch due to the 3/4 pound of dried figs. I tried one of the figs after racking Andy it tasted like bland paste. Absolutely no sugar left in that at all. I suppos I could estimate.

The rosé cider batch is a really lovely dark pinkish red, exactly what I was hoping for. I have that chilling on 2 oz of toasted American oak cubes for 7 gallons right now.

Tasting at racking for all batches, not surprisingly is dry and very acidic. TA for all batches between 6.5 and 8.5 g/l as tartaric. I did some blending experiments with a bit of leftover cider and am amazed at what a small amount of black tea concentrate (3 teabags in 1 cup water steeped for 10 min) did to round out the acid bite.

I’m thinking some tannin addition at bottling will be important.

Questions I have at this point:
1. Any difference in expressing TA as tartaric vs TA as malic?
2. I’m aware of the the relative challenges in making a carbonated sweeter or off dry cider, but what if I wanted to make a “still” off dry cider that was just slightly bubbly. If I used sorbate and k meta, what would be the way to keep a secret much CO2 in solution? Do I get the carboy cold, add those things plus sugar and then bottle cold?

Thanks all!

 

[Maylar]

1. Yes, a bit. TA measuring kits are usually for tartaric (grapes). I read somewhere that malic is .8 or .9 times that, but I can't seem to find the reference. I think it's somewhere in Andrew Lea's cider web site http://www.cider.org.uk/frameset.htm

2. Nope. You should let the cider clear and rack off the lees before stabilizing, and by that time there won't be any CO2.

 

[Corey Fish]

1. Yes, a bit. TA measuring kits are usually for tartaric (grapes). I read somewhere that malic is .8 or .9 times that, but I can't seem to find the reference. I think it's somewhere in Andrew Lea's cider web site http://www.cider.org.uk/frameset.htm

2. Nope. You should let the cider clear and rack off the lees before stabilizing, and by that time there won't be any CO2.

Thanks! I appreciate the help. I guess in regards to #2, I was thinking of wines I have before that come out slightly fizzy (like they weren't off gassed)--I know this is though of as a defect in wine making but just wondering if there was some way to promote this. Looks like not! Thanks for the help.

 

[Maylar]

Thanks! I appreciate the help. I guess in regards to #2, I was thinking of wines I have before that come out slightly fizzy (like they weren't off gassed)--I know this is though of as a defect in wine making but just wondering if there was some way to promote this. Looks like not! Thanks for the help.

Yeah, it's that stabilizing / sweetening thing that gets in the way.The standard dose of potassium sorbate only works when the fermentation is fully done, you've racked off the lees, and there's very little yeast left in solution. The racking process typically degasses any residual CO2, so you're not gonna be able to capture a few bubbles at bottling.

I'm gonna throw this out at ya for consideration; I have one of these, and it's transformed my cider making process: https://www.northernbrewer.com/collections/mini-kegs/products/draft-brewer-mini-keg

And, you're welcome

 

[Chalkyt]

Sorry to quote Jolicoeur yet again (but his book does have lots of useful stuff) !!!!

Maylar is right. Jolicoeur Table 9.2 says that to obtain g/L Malic Acid using a Tartaric Acid titration kit, multiply by 0.89. He also suggests that rather than doing the arithmetic , if your kit uses a sample of 15ml for Tartaric Acid then if you use a sample of 13.4ml instead, the resulting titration will give you the correct value in Malic Acid.

 

[Corey Fish]

Sorry to quote Jolicoeur yet again (but his book does have lots of useful stuff) !!!!

Maylar is right. Jolicoeur Table 9.2 says that to obtain g/L Malic Acid using a Tartaric Acid titration kit, multiply by 0.89. He also suggests that rather than doing the arithmetic , if your kit uses a sample of 15ml for Tartaric Acid then if you use a sample of 13.4ml instead, the resulting titration will give you the correct value in Malic Acid.

Thats super helpful. Thank you!!

 

[Corey Fish]

Yeah, it's that stabilizing / sweetening thing that gets in the way.The standard dose of potassium sorbate only works when the fermentation is fully done, you've racked off the lees there's very little yeast left in solution. The racking process typically degasses any residual CO2, so you're not gonna be able to capture a few bubbles at bottling.

I'm gonna throw this out at ya for consideration; I have one of these, and it's transformed my cider making process: https://www.northernbrewer.com/collections/mini-kegs/products/draft-brewer-mini-keg

And, you're welcome

That mini looks super cool! I've already been looking around at used corny kegs, lucky enough to be in Portland where everyone and their dog brews so lotsa used stuff!

 

[MarkKF]

This is the one I got:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/torpedo-ball-lock-kegs.html

 

[Maylar]

This is the one I got:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/torpedo-ball-lock-kegs.html

Which one? The small one would have worked for me. My "kegerator" is a small dorm sized fridge that the Cannonball just fits into. Doing 1-1/2 gallons at a time works for small batches of ciders or cysers.

 

[MarkKF]

I got the 2.5. I usually make 5 gal. batches. But I can put two 1 gal. batches in it or bottle a case of a 5 gal. batch and mini keg the rest.

 

[Corey Fish]

Update for April 2019. I bottled all batches 3 weeks ago. Bottle conditioning everything. For the Rose cider (#1 above), I bottled at 2.5 volumes. For the bourbon barrel cider (#6 above), bottled at 4 volumes in belgian 750s with crown caps. Bottled the small batch of M2 (#4 above) at 4 volumes in reused champagne bottles. #7 above I kegged and forced carbed about 3 months back, it was great and really dug the addition of the red oak honeycomb. It ended up adding a softness to the cider that was quite welcome. Not "oaky" at all.

#5 above bottled at 3 volumes. The remainder I kegged and forced carbed.

Opening the bottles for a side by side taste test this weekend though I will say the M2 seems to have had trouble force carbing (it's happening just very very slowly). I think the combination of the time to bottling plus the fact this is a medium/high nutrient requiring yeast has made the yeast left in the bottle sluggish. No surprise but if I use this again, and I definitely plan on it, I think I'll add some fresh yeast at bottling time. All others seem to have had no trouble.

Taste update this weekend. Everything so far has seem to come out great.