Plate Chiller Woes

[RJS]

I am two batches in using my new plate chiller, and am not happy with the results. The two batches have gotten to pitching temps soon after passing through the chiller, but ive gotten too much break material going into the fermentor. The result has been hazy beer with muddy flavors.

After some research there seems to be two schools to break material going in to the ferment. One side says "oh hell i just put it all in there and i get good beer", while the other side says break material, especially hot break, can and will make starch haze with muddy off flavors; which is my exact experience.

I am going back to my immersion chiller for the whirlpool and rest in the BK, then im going to run clear wort through the chiller to take it the rest of the way.

I did do a hot whirlpool before going to chiller, albeit very short and without rest, due to DMS concerns. With the chiller inside i feel like getting to 140F and whirlpooling is a safe route.

-Rajanatha

 

[b-boy]

I'm not sure how the plate chiller would cause this.

It might just be your technique. I recirculate back into my kettle through the plate chiller, so I am doing a whirlpool. Once I hit temp, I drain from the kettle into the fermenter.

Where is your dip tube? Mines about 1/2 " off the bottom of the pot so it leaves a lot of trub behind.

 

[RJS]

dip tube is same.

my theory is i was lacking in whirlpool times, not enough settling, and the cold break formed in the chiller and went into the fermenter, something ive never had in there before.

im concerned recirculating will break up too much of the trub, leaving a much less dense cone, and letting finer particles come through to the end.

do you notice increased clarity from the whirlpool as you recirc?

 

[ultravista]

I mash in a bag and constrain hops to a 300 micron stainless filter. The wort is clear of 'debris' but does contain a large amount of trub - but no solids.

All of it goes through the plate chiller into the fermenter.

My beers are clear and clean. Not sure what your issue is but I have not had a problem with light colored beers.

 

[RJS]

So there is one side of the possibilities.

Another side is that too much break material is bad for the finished beer...
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.4/barchet.html"

Thus it is abit mysterious. The only thing ive changed in my process is adding the plate chiller and losing the immersion chiller, and lessened my whirlpool time, letting most of the break material, both hot and cold, in the fermentor.

 

[b-boy]

dip tube is same.

my theory is i was lacking in whirlpool times, not enough settling, and the cold break formed in the chiller and went into the fermenter, something ive never had in there before.

im concerned recirculating will break up too much of the trub, leaving a much less dense cone, and letting finer particles come through to the end.

do you notice increased clarity from the whirlpool as you recirc?

I've never really had any clarity issues since I switched to a plate chiller. My beer seems about the same as before.

 

[ArcaneXor]

DMS should not be a concern as long as you boil for a sufficiently long time. Do a proper whirlpool and let it settle for 10-15 minutes. Cold break compacts nicely under the yeast.

You could drop the temperature first and then whirlpool, but once you are below pasteurization temperature, that increases the odds of picking up a wild yeast.

 

[Curtis2010]

What temp is your cooling water? Maybe its a matter of big temp differential causing more cold break?

Like others, Ive not had this issue. I don't whirlpool. I have a bazooka filter on my BK outlet. My "cooling" water here in the tropics tends to be about 75F, so will cool slower. Maybe a faster cool can cause more cold break? I recirculate to get down near target temp.

 

[RJS]

Howdy Curtis, My tropical water is also 70's.

In your recirc are you finding clear wort? or does it stay cloudy and it clears in ferment?

Ive never had cloudy wort come out of my BK with my normal system. always bright and clear enough to read through.

 

[Curtis2010]

Howdy Curtis, My tropical water is also 70's.

In your recirc are you finding clear wort? or does it stay cloudy and it clears in ferment?

Ive never had cloudy wort come out of my BK with my normal system. always bright and clear enough to read through.

Not crystal clear no. The bazooka screen stops the big stuff, like most of the hops debri, but not everything. It does clear more with recir due to build up on the bazooka screen.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

I've been using a plate chiller for a few years now, and the one thing you want to avoid is pumping hops and break material through your chiller. Mainly because it'll clog it, but the material has an adverse effect on your beer quality.
As mentioned earlier, whirlpool well, and you'll get a nice cone in the center. adjust your dip tube so that it's off toward the side (away from the center) and that'll help you drain down pretty low without sucking up too much of the cone.
hope that helps

 

[RJS]

but the material has an adverse effect on your beer quality.

Is that a typo, or are you on the side of break material presenting off flavors in beer.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

I feel part of the reason my beers are so good is due to the nice clear wort I put in the fermenter. ...so ya, I'm on that side

Honestly, I think what I meant to say is, it can have an adverse effect your beer. ... either way, I don't want it in the wort chiller.

 

[RJS]

I feel part of the reason my beers are so good is due to the nice clear wort I put in the fermenter. ...so ya, I'm on that side

Honestly, I think what I meant to say is, it can have an adverse effect your beer. ... either way, I don't want it in the wort chiller.

I also think that my beer success comes from well made and clear wort. I had a cloudy beer about 800 gallons ago, and i think it stemmed from break material and mash/ protein issues. Hence my surprise and frustration with the plate chiller.

That said, i am humbled whenever a batch turns out other than expected, and the ordeal kind of gets me pumped about brewing again, like having a wall to climb over and get back to perfect batches. Im sure others feel the same

 

[Curtis2010]

I also think that my beer success comes from well made and clear wort. I had a cloudy beer about 800 gallons ago, and i think it stemmed from break material and mash/ protein issues. Hence my surprise and frustration with the plate chiller.

That said, i am humbled whenever a batch turns out other than expected, and the ordeal kind of gets me pumped about brewing again, like having a wall to climb over and get back to perfect batches. Im sure others feel the same

I don't mind an occasional batch with issues so much as long as I learn something. My GF is usually a little preturbed by this point of view...she just wants good brew!

I haven't worried much about my wort being nearly totally free from any particulates, mostly free from exstraneous materials yes, but hasn't been a big concern of mine. I'm at a point where I can consistenly brew very good beer (per my GF & friends) and, satisfying for me, is that I meant too and understand why (...or why not).

Case in point, I got on a Pils kick a few years ago and can now brew a crystal clear and delicious Pils consistently...the ultimate hard to hide flaws beer so these practices are working for me.

Maybe I'll fuss over getting very clear wort from the BK more in the future and see how that impacts my brews. Giving up my plate chiller is not gonna be part of that strategy though...one of my best brew day additions ever. And, this is essentially how the pros do it so I suspect the plate chiller per se is not an issue.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have good success with a 30" long piece of stainless braid connected to my diptube to catch the trub ...I also use a stainless 300 micron hop spider... no issues with my plate chiller very little trub in my fermentor.

 

[RJS]

I don't mind an occasional batch with issues so much as long as I learn something. My GF is usually a little preturbed by this point of view...she just wants good brew!

I haven't worried much about my wort being nearly totally free from any particulates, mostly free from exstraneous materials yes, but hasn't been a big concern of mine. I'm at a point where I can consistenly brew very good beer (per my GF & friends) and, satisfying for me, is that I meant too and understand why (...or why not).

Case in point, I got on a Pils kick a few years ago and can now brew a crystal clear and delicious Pils consistently...the ultimate hard to hide flaws beer so these practices are working for me.

Maybe I'll fuss over getting very clear wort from the BK more in the future and see how that impacts my brews. Giving up my plate chiller is not gonna be part of that strategy though...one of my best brew day additions ever. And, this is essentially how the pros do it so I suspect the plate chiller per se is not an issue.

Nice Post.


Oh im def not getting rid of my plate chiller for realz. just re-thinking that part of the process. Basically im coming to the conclusion that, for me, it will not speed up my process by much, as i need a whirlpool and rest still, but it will def knock down my temps when i do get clear wort, at about 100 or 90F. My IC does not take my wort to ambient water temps like the plate.

 

[Gavin C]

I use a plate chiller and recirculate during cooling creating a whirlpool. The cold break still gets in the FV. I get clear beer though.

I think this Brulosopher experiment is pertinent to the discussion. Many of you have already probably read this. Sorry if it's redundant. http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

Below is a representative beer of mine. I'm not concerned with cold break

 

[RJS]

Very cool read indeed Gavin.

However the main difference here, to me, seems to be the way trub/ break material went into the ferment.

What happens with cold break is its ability to separate itself from the rest of the wort upon cooling, and drop out. What he did in the experiment didnt really equal what a plate chiller does immediately after the boil. Meaning the experiment is not representing the issue the same way.

When we instantly cool from BK to Chiller into fermentor, the hot and cold break go with having never separated from the wort. In the experiment the cold break would have plenty of time to coagulate during his BK chilling and drop out considerably. Then when adding the yeast there would be no issue of it sticking together and staying in suspension later.

I would guess that the hot and cold break going from near boiling to plate chiller into fermentor while also adding yeast soon thereafter is causing the issue. His cooling and settling, then just adding back trub later wouldnt bother me at all in one of my batches.

The beginning of the difference would be in this quote..."Once the boil was complete and the wort was chilled to 72°F, the first carboy was filled"

 

[Gavin C]

I suppose that's one way to look at it.

I don't see how the cold break doesn't make it into the FV either way.

It settles out till ferment begins and settles out when ferment is complete. It never gets into the keg regardless.

Lots just dump the whole job lot into the FV.

 

[RJS]

I ended up getting adjusted to my plate chiller by using just a hot whirlpool with a ten minute rest.

Not sure what all happened and why, but leaving the wort hot seems to help everything drop out much better then cooling it all down.

I suppose thats why some small pro brewers also just hot whirlpool, let stand and off to the chiller.