PID control for step mashing RIMS

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homebrewdude76

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My RIMS tube has been working well for a simple single temp mash. I use a ball valve to restrict flow after the RIMS tube. Autotune seemed to have worked.

This weekend I tried to go 122F to 150F step mash. I heard the tube boiling/sizzling.

Are there some limits I can set on the PID to prevent 100% firing when I ramp up?

Also with flow, I keep trying to slow it down, but I can run the pump almost wide open without a stuck mash. Not sure what is better.

Element is 5500w on 240v
Centerflow chugger pump
 
Put the valve in front of the RIMs tube, not after it. Could be a potential bomb...
 
You have some serious over-capacity with a 5500 watt element used in a RIMS tube application and it might not be possible to tune the PID for stable operation with it.

If you need to operate at low flow rates, I would suggest a smaller wattage element or running the element you have on 120 volts to lower its output.

With that large of an element, I am not surprised you have boiling problems at low flow rates.
 
Where is your temperature sensor located? It needs to be IMMEDIATELY downstream of the RIMS element.

I agree that 5500w is too much. I have 4500w and its probably stronger than I need, but it doesn't scortch.
 
Also with flow, I keep trying to slow it down, but I can run the pump almost wide open without a stuck mash. Not sure what is better.
Faster is better. It means less temperature differential across the RIMS tube, and so less overheating of the wort (which will denature enzymes as well as causing scorching issues). It also means tighter thermal coupling between the element and temperature probe.

It also means that the fluid in the mash bed is exchanged faster (yes, there is some mixing, but not complete mixing), so the mash bed temperature rises more uniformly.

And a +1 to the poster who said to put the valve before the RIMS tube. If you are boiling in the RIMS tube, and the restriction is after the tube, you will start to get a build-up of steam in the RIMS tube. That means firstly that the element may begin to be exposed, scorching and flash boiling more wort, and secondly that the thermal contact between the temperature probe and wort may be compromised. Both situations can lead to a positive feedback where the element remains on longer, and produces even more steam. A steam explosion is unlikely if the valve is more than a tiny bit open, but it's still not good at all.
 
Faster is better. It means less temperature differential across the RIMS tube, and so less overheating of the wort (which will denature enzymes as well as causing scorching issues). It also means tighter thermal coupling between the element and temperature probe.

It also means that the fluid in the mash bed is exchanged faster (yes, there is some mixing, but not complete mixing), so the mash bed temperature rises more uniformly.

And a +1 to the poster who said to put the valve before the RIMS tube. If you are boiling in the RIMS tube, and the restriction is after the tube, you will start to get a build-up of steam in the RIMS tube. That means firstly that the element may begin to be exposed, scorching and flash boiling more wort, and secondly that the thermal contact between the temperature probe and wort may be compromised. Both situations can lead to a positive feedback where the element remains on longer, and produces even more steam. A steam explosion is unlikely if the valve is more than a tiny bit open, but it's still not good at all.
Just my opinion but I kinda have to disagree here... as mentioned in another thread the enzymes are in the wort so you want to heat the wort to the desired temp as quickly as possible without going over that temp. With lower flow (and longer contact time you can achieve a specific temp point as the wort passes through the rims without a lot of element firing time... You dont want fast flow where SOME of the wort is super heated by a very hot element which is way over the desired temp mixing with other wort which is cooler and never actually touches the element...you want complete/even and stable heating in one pass without temp extremes. Ideally an element which never gets hotter (or barely) than the desired setpoint is the best approach.. plus with less flow you have MUCH less chance of stuck sparges and issues that come from varying flow rates.
5500w is a lot of heat packed into a small surface area... I step mash just fine with 1800w myself.
 
Just my opinion but I kinda have to disagree here... as mentioned in another thread the enzymes are in the wort so you want to heat the wort to the desired temp as quickly as possible without going over that temp. With lower flow (and longer contact time you can achieve a specific temp point as the wort passes through the rims without a lot of element firing time... You dont want fast flow where SOME of the wort is super heated by a very hot element which is way over the desired temp mixing with other wort which is cooler and never actually touches the element...you want complete/even and stable heating in one pass without temp extremes. Ideally an element which never gets hotter (or barely) than the desired setpoint is the best approach.. plus with less flow you have MUCH less chance of stuck sparges and issues that come from varying flow rates.
5500w is a lot of heat packed into a small surface area... I step mash just fine with 1800w myself.

I do somewhat disagree with that - if, say, you want to switch from one enzymatic action regime to another by heating in a step mash, at a defined time, you need the wort throughout the entire mash/wort volume to be heated to the desired temperature. Otherwise the enzymes in the wort (in the mash tun) that hasn't been heated yet carries on working on the previous step. Enzyme denaturing also doesn't happen instantly, so wort that goes into the RIMS tube, gets heated to the next mash step and then cooled again as it goes into the mash tun doesn't fully transition from one mash step regime to the next*.

So I think you probably want to heat the entire bulk of the wort, and maintain that temperature, to go fully from one mash step to another, and that you probably want to do that in a fast** way. However, the point about the enzymes being in the wort is an important consideration for maintaining temperature within a mash step - if you have a large heat loss going from the RIMS tube to mash, and/or from the mash tun itself, and are trying to maintain temperature in the mash tun, then the wort temperature in the RIMS tube will be significantly higher than in the mash, and you may get significant enzyme denaturing and a drop in enzymatic action during a long hold at a particular temperature.

You can step the bulk mash temperature fastest when the element is on for as much as the time as possible, and that happens when the flow is fast enough that it doesn't need to switch off due to the wort in the RIMS tube overheating. It doesn't need to go any faster than that, as the heat transfer is then limited by the power of the element, but as the incoming wort temperature gets closer to the setpoint, then the heat transfer will slow again. This will happen at a higher input temperature at a faster flow rate. In the case of an element that is heated only to the set point temperature, you still get the fastest heat transfer to the bulk of the mash by faster flow rates, as the mean temperature difference along the contact area is larger - a HERMS will heat a mash faster with a faster flow rate.

The other point I'd make is that faster flow means more turbulence and mixing in the RIMS tube***, and thus more uniform temperatures in the wort around the element, and generally less chance of part of the wort overheating and scorching. Laminar flow is bad but is also more likely at lower flow rates for any given RIMS tube. And yes, I agree that varying flow is the worst scenario, so staying well away from stuck mashes is important.

Quite possibly I'm overthinking this****, and making too strong an assumption about what is desired from a step-mash... ;)

*Assuming no significant overheating - you could use overheating of the wort to more rapidly denature one enzyme, but you'd be running the risk of denaturing the ones needed for the next step. I don't think people generally want to do that, but you could look at it as a continuous flow decoction mash. You'd want good mixing in the mash tun (and no scorching) if you were to attempt that, so that the entire wort volume didn't have to pass through the RIMS tube and get overheated.

**Consistency may be a lot more important if you are developing recipes that you repeat a lot or that are based off one another.

***Generally. Specific cases where the flow detaches in certains ways and leaves static eddies might differ, but I don't think they are likely in the typical RIMS tube scenario. Feel free to come back with CFD simulations that show otherwise. ;)

****The number of footnotes might well be a sign, as would the loser length of this post...
 
Unless you have a huge heat source and can transfer that heat into the entire volume of wort, there is no practical way to raise the temperature of your entire wort volume instantly. Overheating the wort within the RIMS tube is a great way to denature your enzymes prematurely and you end up with wort that won't ferment. I've done it! (Its not good beer)

It doesn't matter how much your pump can pump if the grain bed is hydraulically overloaded. In water and wastewater engineering design for filters (a mash bed is actually a granular filter), we employ rules of thumb in the form of limits on surface loading. A common value is expressed in terms of gpm per square foot. If you work through those units, you'll find that its actually an velocity. This is important since the hydraulic losses and stress on the bed will become very high due to the resulting high velocity. I've found that limiting the total head loss across a grain bed to about the depth of the grain bed, is appropriate to avoid compacting the bed. This limit to head loss has been known for centuries since you will commonly see those goose-neck outlets on old tuns. They limit the head you can place on the bed. The same thing needs to be applied when using a pump. Limit the drawdown that the pump produces at the bottom of the bed. I monitor the head at the bottom of my bed with a manometer ported into the bottom of the tun.

It doesn't matter that there is a portion of your wort that hasn't yet been heated to your next temperature step. It does matter that you heat your wort to exactly your next step and not overheat. That hot wort enters the bed and creates a 'wave' of hot wort that descends through the bed. While the leading edge of that heat wave will be under temperature, it doesn't take long for the wort and grain to come to temperature.

DON'T OVERHEAT YOUR WORT!!!
 
I am in the camp for not overheating during mashing during temperature increase.

Calling it a step mash is really a misleading description. As mentioned, in an actual mash, temperature steps are nowhere close to instantaneous stair-steps, but are gradual ramp-ups from one temperature plateau to the next.
This is the case in large breweries or small, whether directly heated or using a recirculation system and external heat source.
Trying to rush the heating of the mash by adding too much heat is counterproductive.
 
dyqik, I dont understand how you get "mixing" in the mash tun... The hotter wort is deposited on top and gradually works its way down through the grainbed heating it more consistently as it travels down.... Theres no real "Mixing" going on the way your describing unless your mechanically doing it nor does their need to be because as others mentioned its done in steps.. A fully heated lwd 5500w element against wort during the conversion process while stepping has more negative drawbacks than possible positive ones as I see it.
 
dyqik, I dont understand how you get "mixing" in the mash tun... The hotter wort is deposited on top and gradually works its way down through the grainbed heating it more consistently as it travels down.... Theres no real "Mixing" going on the way your describing unless your mechanically doing it nor does their need to be because as others mentioned its done in steps.. A fully heated lwd 5500w element against wort during the conversion process while stepping has more negative drawbacks than possible positive ones as I see it.

I'm not getting mixing in the mash tun to any significant degree, and I didn't say I was.

I only said that you'd need mixing to do some kind of pseudo-decoction mash by overheating the wort in RIMS tube. I don't recommend that, just mentioning that it might in principle be possible. And yes, you'd need stirring to make that work.

And yes, a 5500W element is probably too​ powerful for any plausible flowrate in a typical homebrew setup. Maybe a 1bbl system with larger pumps and ports could use one effectively.
 
Where is your temperature sensor located? It needs to be IMMEDIATELY downstream of the RIMS element.

I agree that 5500w is too much. I have 4500w and its probably stronger than I need, but it doesn't scortch.

It is in the rims tube directly downstream from the flow.

I am not having issues with standard mash. Just setting it for step mash.
 
Where is your temperature sensor located? It needs to be IMMEDIATELY downstream of the RIMS element.

I agree that 5500w is too much. I have 4500w and its probably stronger than I need, but it doesn't scortch.

It is in the rims tube directly downstream from the flow.

I am not having issues with standard mash. Just setting it for step mash.
 
You could do a fairly simple mod to your RIMS panel to test whether a smaller element would solve your issue with step mashes.

Modify your panel so that the element runs on 120 volts. This would cut your element power back to about 1,400 watts.
 
just my 2 cents: I used a rims for many years and after several burnt elements and some bad tasting beers I found a compromise, so Ive found to never use your rims to increase the mash temp, only use it to maintain the temp, so now you don't need anything larger than a 3500 watt element and smaller is actually preferred by some people even a 120v model, but that means you need another heat source, I had one in the bottom of the mash tun so it worked out for me as for the pid the best that worked for me was the EZboil, Power Regulator by auberins.com its very easy to maintain when set up right because it fires at a faster rate with no overshooting
 
A properly constructed and tuned RIMS should have no problem raising mash temperatures from dough-in all the way up to mash-out.
 
I was thinking I would have short pulses of the element for a step mash.

You do. That is what the PID always does (so long as the heating element is of sufficient size). You just need to ensure sufficient flow to attain good temperature regulation. The faster the flow, the more reliable the temp will be, and the less time it will take to pass the entire wort volume through the device to reach the next temperature step - and the less likely you are to experience scorching.
 
The point of my thread was looking for advice to set my PID. Autotune isn't working. But instead the thread turned into what can RIMS do and not do, which has a lot of opinion. I have 12 batches with my 5500 element, no issues... So I don't think I need a lower wattage element...
 
A properly constructed and tuned RIMS should have no problem raising mash temperatures from dough-in all the way up to mash-out.

I second this... This is exactly why I used a 36" long 1800w cartridge element which is ULWD in my rimscombined with very low flow or 1.5-1.8gpm I can step mash with absolutely no residue on my element whatsoever and no problems I use longer contact time with the longer rims to gently raise it all to the desired element temp vs flash heating it ... not much different than cooking with a large gentle flame vs using a concentrated torch flame with constant mixing.
 
You do. That is what the PID always does (so long as the heating element is of sufficient size). You just need to ensure sufficient flow to attain good temperature regulation. The faster the flow, the more reliable the temp will be, and the less time it will take to pass the entire wort volume through the device to reach the next temperature step - and the less likely you are to experience scorching.

yes but this is only true for maintaining temps not increasing during a step were the pid will leave the 5500w element on until the desired temp is reached, cooking your wort in the process...This is why properly sized elements and flow make a difference.

And no its not the same as decoction where you cook a portion of the Grain and the goal is to leave most of the wort behind.
 
The point of my thread was looking for advice to set my PID. Autotune isn't working. But instead the thread turned into what can RIMS do and not do, which has a lot of opinion. I have 12 batches with my 5500 element, no issues... So I don't think I need a lower wattage element...

Autotune likely doesnt work because of how the rims is being used.. It really is the answer to your question. If the rims was setup to have actual full consistent control over the temp and flow of the the wort that passes through it, The pid would be able to use those factors to autotune... If your basically runnng the flow as varing rates and at full bore so the amount of heating thats taking place is always fluctuating and the rims never actually gets to accomplish its goal in a single pass of reaching its desired temp or a consistent delta which will throw off the pids ability to predict and make adjustments.
 
You don't. You just need to increase the flow rate so the PID can do its job.

That can be the opposite of what the pid needs to predict outcome and tune for it. if he increases flow the stability of the rate of flow becomes less consistent and the pid wont get predicatable linear response to use as info when autotuning. Your theory only works if there was no restrictions and the grain bed was always the same size and allowed the same flow rate. The reality is it will likely just result in a stuck sparge or crush his false bottom from hydraulic pressure as mentioned. Also the higher the flow the less consistent the temp of the liquids that hit the temp sensor depending on placement. since some wort will pass through so quickly it will not have ample time to equalize in temps with the wort thats boiling on the hot 5500w element surface since it will be at surface boil temps and the flow will still not be enough to prevent boiling or near boiling temps of the wort in contact with it.. if you can make some sort of mixing agitator and put the sensor downstream or at the outlet of the grainbed that it would work but at the cost of overshooting at every step. In the end this setup would have more potential for disaster
 
It is in the rims tube directly downstream from the flow.

I am not having issues with standard mash. Just setting it for step mash.

I think the explanation for what you are seeing is that the PID is only switching your heating element on briefly to maintain a single temperature mash. If you are hitting your strike temps pretty well, the system is not being asked to add much heat, therefore the element is on a minimal amount of time and no boiling.

During a step mash where the system is making adjustments of 10 degrees or more, the heating element may be switched on continuously for several minutes at a time while the mash reaches the setpoint. Plenty of opportunity for boiling under these conditions.
 
Ok, but can I set limits on the PID to limit the time the element is on?

No, not with the common pids most people use here at least. You can do something like that with additional wiring and an ssvr to limit the elements maximum power but all these things will just be limiting the elements output in the same way as just swapping it out with saw a 3500w element or wiring the 5500w element with 120v power which would be a cheaper solution.
 
HBD never got his question answered... having a 240/120V switching circuit on my 5500W RIMS element. I never heat wort at 5500W except for mashout. I do think that there may be some super-heated wort local to the element, and despite the net effect of the wort temp rising at a reasonably slow rate, you may be denaturing enzymes. I mashout ~4 gals of wort within 8-10 minutes (from 152 to 170 degs), so that high power dramatically effects the wort temp.

But, if incorporating that circuit is not practical, I think it is a good idea to clamp the max output. In the PID this is done with a Max Output setting of some sort. But you didn't tell us what type of PID you have. There are different manufacturers and different settings / names. Plus this setting will need to be changed again when you want to use the full power.
 
It is an [SYL-2352] Auberins. Not seeing where I can limit max output

https://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2352_manual.pdf

I think the OUTH parameter will do it for you. Instructions even site your specific issue of an oversized element.

Sorry for the crappy screen captures. The link above has everything you need to know. You might want to start out setting OUTH to a value of 30-40%, and see how that works.
Tweak value as-needed

Untitled.jpg


Untitled1.jpg
 
I Was wounding this as well. Should have read the manual. I brewed an awesome beer with my RIMS tube but my ABV was low for an IPA. It’s a 4500 watt element @240V. Anyways there’s no way to set this automatically? Can you set the PID to bring the mash 10 degrees over 10 mins? I did this manually last brew.
 
I Was wounding this as well. Should have read the manual. I brewed an awesome beer with my RIMS tube but my ABV was low for an IPA. It’s a 4500 watt element @240V. Anyways there’s no way to set this automatically? Can you set the PID to bring the mash 10 degrees over 10 mins? I did this manually last brew.

No, a single simple PID loop can't "know" the heat capacity of your entire mash+tun+RIMS system, and how fast it can ramp the mash temperature for your flow rate through the RIMS heater.

What you need for that is an adaptive nested control loop type system. This is somewhat similar how the brew-pi type fermentation controllers operate - they control the temperature of the fermentation chamber using a control algorithm that is somewhere between a simple thermostat and a PID loop (thermostat with overshoot prediction). The temperature of the fermentation chamber is set by a PID loop controlling the fermenting beer temperature. To do this you need two temperature sensors, one monitoring the beer temp, and one monitoring the fermentation chamber temps.

In principle, something like CraftBeerPi or the other more advanced controllers could do this, but it may not be worth it, given the time it would take for them to learn for each different batch vs the time taken to actually mash. I guess you may be able to use the recipe to predict the mash volume and thus predict the heat capacity of the mash+system, and a flow meter to predict the heat transfer rate, to adjust the maximum output power and RIMS set point and thus get fairly consistent ramp times.
 
No, a single simple PID loop can't "know" the heat capacity of your entire mash+tun+RIMS system, and how fast it can ramp the mash temperature for your flow rate through the RIMS heater.

What you need for that is an adaptive nested control loop type system. This is somewhat similar how the brew-pi type fermentation controllers operate - they control the temperature of the fermentation chamber using a control algorithm that is somewhere between a simple thermostat and a PID loop (thermostat with overshoot prediction). The temperature of the fermentation chamber is set by a PID loop controlling the fermenting beer temperature. To do this you need two temperature sensors, one monitoring the beer temp, and one monitoring the fermentation chamber temps.

In principle, something like CraftBeerPi or the other more advanced controllers could do this, but it may not be worth it, given the time it would take for them to learn for each different batch vs the time taken to actually mash. I guess you may be able to use the recipe to predict the mash volume and thus predict the heat capacity of the mash+system, and a flow meter to predict the heat transfer rate, to adjust the maximum output power and RIMS set point and thus get fairly consistent ramp times.



That’s what I was thinking. More like a Brucontrol or a bcs system. I have no issue raising one or two degrees over 10-15 mine for step mashing and mash out.
 
No, but limiting the max element cycle using the OUTH parameter will cause a slower ramp and reduce or eliminate localized boiling just fine. I only wish the cycle time on that unit was shorter than 2 seconds.
 
No, but limiting the max element cycle using the OUTH parameter will cause a slower ramp and reduce or eliminate localized boiling just fine. I only wish the cycle time on that unit was shorter than 2 seconds.


Have you found this to be a limitation for any applications?
 
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