Persistent off flavor and complete loss of hop flavor

[Bassaholic]

I’ve been having issues for the last 4 batches I’ve brewed. All 4 have been IPAs that I have had to dump. I haven’t changed anything in my process and have made tons of great IPAs in the past. The best way I can describe the off flavor is tartness, maybe green apple, but it only gets more intense with age. The other part of it is the complete disappearance of hop flavors and how fast they disappear. My fermentations smell normal for 2-3 days then overnight it completely changes to this same flavor.

I know I should probably brew a different style, but I was really hoping to figure out where the problem is coming from. I have changed variables on each brew from hop varieties, yeast strain, grain bill and fermenter. Before my most recent one I cleaned my fermenter, then bleached it, rinsed it and sanitized with star san, and used a fresh pitch of yeast vs one I had harvested in the past.

Can anyone give me some insight on what to try next? It’s getting pretty depressing having to dump so many batches. Let me know if you need any more information. I still have the most recent batch that’s off and I’m planning on testing the pH and bringing in a sample to my LHBS to see if they can help pinpoint the off flavor. I appreciate any insights you guys have.

 

[IslandLizard]

So sorry to hear you got this mindboggle, wasting time and what should have been good beer.
From what you described, I'd say it points to some sort of infection.

Too bad you didn't finish the first few batches that went south, they may have pointed to clues, and you may have been 3 good brews ahead by now.

Looking at your recent post history, you've been reporting trouble for a while now.
Did you use those fermenters for Kombucha before?
What was the story with those old and saved yeast cultures? Did you use those?

You used Kveik and reported bad aromas and flavors. I've never used Kveik myself, but heard it can be dried on filter paper or a paper towel, hung in the corner of the kitchen, then rehydrated 3 years later and made into a pitchable yeast starter. Some hardy yeast, if you ask me. But what comes with it?

What kind of fermenters are you using?
Bleach is NOT a cleaner, it's a disinfectant, it won't remove biofilm, for example. You'd need a good alkaline cleaner and some mechanical means, stiff nylon brushes, etc. to remove those. From everywhere.

Have you disassembled and cleaned all valves and ports in every wort path, including the ones on your boil kettle. A tarry substance can develop in there, regardless of near boil temps sustained in that area. Pediococcus has been found to be a major player in persistent infections from those areas. Although a signature buttery flavor/aroma points to Pedio I would not be surprised what you're experiencing to be related to some hardy bacterial or yeast related infection.

How about on the cold side, any spigots, tubing, siphons and other bug traps alike?

 

[Bassaholic]

Thanks for the detailed response! The fermenters I’m using are glass carboys, the one that previously had kombucha in it is an hdpe conical and hasn’t been used for any clean beers.

The dried kveik was what I used for the first 3 batches then I got a fresh pack of wlp088 London Fog for the final batch. I was pretty confident that it was my drying process for the kveik, but it appears not.

Before this last batch I used oxyclean to soak the carboy, followed by 1 Tbsp bleach/gallon of water, then rinsed thoroughly and sanitized with StarSan. The only thing that was in contact with the wort cold side was a funnel, so I suppose I should replace that. On one of the batches I used a siphon instead of the funnel and still ended up with the same results.

I have not cleaned my kettle other than a scrubbing after brewday. There are no ports on it, I usually just dump it into my carboy with the funnel. I guess that a good next step as well as replacing all plastics and repeating the cleaning regiment on my carboy. Everything except the funnel is relatively new and I’m very careful to rinse then soak in StarSan and dry.

It definitely seems like an infection but I’m surprised it can take over so quickly especially during active fermentation.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, the OP's prior thread may provide useful context...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/off-flavor-from-dried-kveik.671526/

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

Although glass is impervious, biofilms can be stubborn and cling to them. I wouldn't rely on soaking alone, I'd always use a brush or a non-scratching pad to clean surfaces, together with washing soda, Oxiclean, homemade PBW, and sometimes BKF.

Depending on type, many plastics are not totally impervious, and can harbor bugs in tight, hard to clean areas and scratches. Vinyl tubing is a bug trap. It's cleanable, but again, needs brushes, cleaners, and elbow grease. Replacing with new is cheap. Bungs, carboy caps, rubber seals, the plunger in auto siphons, spigots, etc. are other possible traps.

A funnel surface may be smooth, but the end of the spout tends to be rough.

It definitely seems like an infection but I’m surprised it can take over so quickly especially during active fermentation.

Yeah, the speed is the most alarming part. Something is able to get a good foothold before the yeast does.

Do you make yeast starters? If not, you really should for quicker lift off, but use good sanitation so you're not propagating any bugs together with the yeast. You really need to scrutinize your whole process, every step as to where and how bugs can be introduced.

Sometimes it may help using a second and different sanitizer. Starsan may not get all the superbugs you're dealing with. Iodine based sanitizers will kill anything. I periodically use Iodophor for that reason.

 

[Bassaholic]

Although glass is impervious, biofilms can be stubborn and cling to them. I wouldn't rely on soaking alone, I'd always use a brush or a non-scratching pad to clean surfaces, together with washing soda, Oxiclean, homemade PBW, and sometimes BKF.

Depending on type, many plastics are not totally impervious, and can harbor bugs in tight, hard to clean areas and scratches. Vinyl tubing is a bug trap. It's cleanable, but again, needs brushes, cleaners, and elbow grease. Replacing with new is cheap. Bungs, carboy caps, rubber seals, the plunger in auto siphons, spigots, etc. are other possible traps.

A funnel surface may be smooth, but the end of the spout tends to be rough.

Yeah, the speed is the most alarming part. Something is able to get a good foothold before the yeast does.

Do you make yeast starters? If not, you really should for quicker lift off, but use good sanitation so you're not propagating any bugs together with the yeast. You really need to scrutinize your whole process, every step as to where and how bugs can be introduced.

Sometimes it may help using a second and different sanitizer. Starsan may not get all the superbugs you're dealing with. Iodine based sanitizers will kill anything. I periodically use Iodophor for that reason.

So I went back and tasted the beer again yesterday and it actually tasted very good and the off flavor was not present at all. I think I may have just tasted it too early (after only 3 days into fermentation) and was possibly tasting acetyldehyde. I’m guessing the cause of my issues was in fact my drying process for the kveik yeast as even my starters had the off flavor. Thank you for al your input and genuine concern. It’s definitely good to take a step back and analyze your process from time to time. I am grateful for that aspect of the situation as well as the pointers you gave me, so thanks for taking the time to respond. I’m excited to not be stressed about making a batch of beer again!

 

[bucketnative]

I think I may have just tasted it too early (after only 3 days into fermentation) and was possibly tasting acetyldehyde.

I can't imagine anything good coming from taste testing at 3 days in the average fermentation. There's still so much going on physically, chemically, and microbiologically with the fermentation process that it is typically not an accurate representation of the finished beer.