"Permanent" jockey box in a "warm" freezer?

[Herbie555]

Hi DIYers, I got a weird question for you. Actually, an idea I want you to shoot down or confirm as "possible".

I'm considering building a "permanent" jockey box arrangement to chill my beer at home. Here's the trick - I currently have a top/bottom fridge/freezer in the garage that's been converted to a wine cellar. You can see the details of that here: http://herbiesworld.blogspot.com/2008/04/low-budged-wine-cellar-from-refigerator.html

By the nature of this conversion and the temperature controller I have, the "freezer" section currently hovers right around 30-32°F, with a little bit of hysteresis. I have a little flexibility there by playing with settings and I could nudge it up or down a couple of degrees. Since this isn't quite cold enough for safe food storage, I currently just store 10+ gallons of mostly-frozen water in there as thermal mass and emergency water/ice supply in case of Earthquake or zombie apocalypse.

My thinking is that I could add either coils or a cold-plate arrangement submerged in a bath of salted-water inside the "freezer" section. This would let me get another use out of a piece of electrical equipment I'm already paying to operate and would let me have kegs un-refrigerated.

Here are my operating criteria:

• Low utilization - pulling the wife and me a beer for dinner, up to a few beers an hour for guests, nothing more.
• Prefer low-volume solution, so inclined to cold-plate rather than coils
• Using commercial craft beer kegs of varying sizes. Not currently homebrewing.
• Adding additional functionality to existing equipment (limited room and wife-tolerance for a second beverage-device)
• Freezer section not tall enough for kegs inside, else I'd just kegerator-ize the thing
• Have already modified this fridge, so a few more holes for jockey arrangement not a problem.

See any problems with this arrangement? Given that it's there already and my low-volume, low-throughput requirements, I think this will work, but I'm far from an expert in this arena, so I seek outside criticism.

Thanks much!!

 

[nebulous]

i say do it, just use SS coils so you dont have to worry about oxidation.

 

[RoundKid]

The issue I see is that the beer will not remain carbonated. Pressure needed for carbonation at the temperature the keg sits is very different from the pressure needed to push the beer through the cold plate. The beer will slowly lose carbonation over the life of the keg until it's kind of flat.

 

[JuanMoore]

I don't see any major issues with it. I assume you'll be mounting the shanks/faucets on the freezer door so that they stay cold?

The issue I see is that the beer will not remain carbonated. Pressure needed for carbonation at the temperature the keg sits is very different from the pressure needed to push the beer through the cold plate. The beer will slowly lose carbonation over the life of the keg until it's kind of flat.

Most cold plates for jockey boxes I've seen work best around 30-35 psi, which is a pretty good pressure for maintaining an average carb level at room temp. To maintain 2.5 vol at 78° requires 33.6 psi. If the kegs will be a little colder, lowering the pressure to prevent overcarbing will result in a slightly slower pour, but shouldn't cause any problems.

 

[RoundKid]

Most cold plates for jockey boxes I've seen work best around 30-35 psi, which is a pretty good pressure for maintaining an average carb level at room temp.

In that case, I am for this idea. Post pics!

 

[Herbie555]

I'm glad that so far I'm not completely insane. A few more questions as I gain more knowledge here:
By leaving the keg(s) at room temperature, would I potentially be shortening the life of the beer inside? I ask because while my wife and I enjoy beer (and I'm sure would enjoy it more if we had it on tap at home), prudence and my waistline demand that we don't drink LOTS of beer. Researching regular kegerator users here has convinced me there's enough life in the beer for us to finish a small keg at our pace, but I'm worried about "mishandling" the beer. It sounds like room-temp keg jockey box arrangements are usually for parties, etc. where you'd be drinking through the keg more quickly. If we're only drinking say 10pints a week, we'd need the beer to survive 3 months or so at room temp post-tapping. Doable? or Risky?

Last question regarding coils vs. plates - can plates be used submerged in cold water? I originally assumed they were used the same, but a plates vs. coils FAQ I found suggests plates should be used with direct ice only. If that's true, given my application it might be better to use coils, even though I'd prefer not to have 25oz or more of beer tied up in the tubes. The FAQ also indicates plates should only be used with cooled kegs, but I'm assuming that's due to the relatively shorter "length" giving less opportunity for heat exchange, which I'm a bit less concerned about given my low-throughput application.

 

[dirkomatic]

I'm curious about this, but I believe you will encounter some issues... In my jockey box, I need to keep the drain open to drain off the warm water or the beer does not chill. I don't believe your freezer will chill the warm water quickly enough for this to work... I could be wrong about that, though. I am by no means an expert in thermodynamics.

 

[JuanMoore]

Beer will be more susceptible to infection from any nasties it's exposed to at room temp than it would be at colder temps, but if your sanitation is decent it shouldn't present a problem. Beer will condition and age faster at room temps, which is a good thing for malt forward beers, but not so good for hop forward beers. Won't ruin a hop forward beer or anything, but you'll lose the hop flavors and aromas sooner. The beer will "survive" for many many months, but the flavors will change faster.

I think you're on the right track. Since you won't be able to drain it, and you'll have a relatively large temp differential, my guess is that your best bet is an extra long jockey box coil.

 

[Herbie555]

I'm curious about this, but I believe you will encounter some issues... In my jockey box, I need to keep the drain open to drain off the warm water or the beer does not chill. I don't believe your freezer will chill the warm water quickly enough for this to work... I could be wrong about that, though. I am by no means an expert in thermodynamics.

My concept was to use a salt-water bath for the coils or plate. This would have the thermal mass and the freezer will keep this at a pretty steady temperature of right around 32° (I know it will hold this temp because I've been logging the temp of the freezer where I've been storing bottled water for months).

Yes, it will take time to get the bath to "operating" temperature, but once there it will be held pretty well and the relatively low volume of beer moving through the heat exchanger should be much less than the thermal mass of the exchanger and bath combined.

What I am worried about though is keeping the faucet, etc. cool. Mounting in the door would solve the problem, but it's a bottom-mount freezer, which would mean (at best) the tap handles would be about 30" off the ground.

I think the concept of an "electric jockey box" is sound but the execution details will be the problem. If I had a side-by-side fridge as my wine cellar, then I'd be golden, since I could easily fit a sixtle keg in the freezer side and the wine in the fridge side. ;-)

 

[NickTheGreat]

I am intrigued by your idea. I do think you need the water bath for this to have a chance at working. Well, salt water, or something that doesn't freeze at 32°F

 

[MrFoodScientist]

Won't salt water corrode even stainless steel?

 

[Herbie555]

That's a fair point. I was thinking about lowering the freezing point, not corrosion. The more I think about the details of this, the more I think I need to just find/make space for a regular kegerator, but if I were going to continue with the idea, there are other solutions: Alcohol/Water mix, antifreeze, ice-pack-filler-goo, etc.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I think any benefits reaped are outweighed by having to store your beer warm, cold conditioning and cold storage are a GOOD thing for many reasons...

While it will work, I would not invest time, effort, and money into a warm storage and cold plate serving arrangement...JMO cheers!

 

[Herbie555]

Yeah, I think for now I'll stick to a stand-alone kegerator, though I will keep this idea on the stack (and an eye on Craigslist) as a possible soda chiller. No reason I couldn't have draft root beer too...